# Would you die if you lost "a pound of flesh"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958 "2010-10-31T06:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/21 "2010-11-01T16:41:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s what I mean - it doesn’t say Shylock has to cut off exactly one pound in one go. Why can’t he cut it off an ounce at a time? > > Regards, > Shodan Because one ounce is less than one pound. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/22 "2010-11-01T16:45:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because one ounce is less than one pound. So if I owe you a hundred dollars I can’t open my wallet and count “ten, twenty, thirty, forty”? I’ve got to randomly grab a handful of bills, hand them to you and hope I’d grabbed a hundred? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/23 "2010-11-01T17:09:17Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So if I owe you a hundred dollars I can’t open my wallet and count “ten, twenty, thirty, forty”? I’ve got to randomly grab a handful of bills, hand them to you and hope I’d grabbed a hundred? That is a very good example. Yes, that is pretty much what Shylock agreed to. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/24 "2010-11-01T17:22:20Z")
I disagree. Just because you are entitled to something, you do not legally have to take it all do you. If I owe you $100, do you have to take it all or could you legally take less if you want? And I don’t recall Shylock’s contract saying that the poundof flesh had to be taken all at once. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/25 "2010-11-01T17:26:34Z")
FWIW, there are some scholarly writings that agree that actual law would have been behind Shylock. Taking less than what’s allowed by the contract is not a violation of the contract (though more certainly would be), and there’s some legal principal that if you agree to something in a contract, you’re agreeing to everything else necessary for that to take place. Since there’s no way to remove flesh without shedding blood, shedding blood is implicitly agreed to in a contract allowing the removal of flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/26 "2010-11-01T17:34:22Z")
Why does flesh have to be muscle? I’m thinking skinning is the way to go. Skin should certainly count as flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/27 "2010-11-01T17:43:27Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > FWIW, there are some scholarly writings that agree that actual law would have been behind Shylock. Taking less than what’s allowed by the contract is not a violation of the contract (though more certainly would be), and there’s some legal principal that if you agree to something in a contract, you’re agreeing to everything else necessary for that to take place. Since there’s no way to remove flesh without shedding blood, shedding blood is implicitly agreed to in a contract allowing the removal of flesh. Of course, remember that this is a play. Shakespeare needed a way for Shylock to be thwarted, and of course the members of the court would be looking for any plausible excuse not to have to enforce his contract. They would have seized on the argument regardless of its actual legality. The outcome of the case in the play has about the same relationship to actual legal issues as the average episode of _Perry Mason._ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/28 "2010-11-01T18:25:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And I don’t recall Shylock’s contract saying that the poundof flesh had to be taken all at once. Then the part about “take no less” is meaningless if you can just keep taking bits until it equals one pound. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/29 "2010-11-01T18:26:56Z")
You could easily take at least 5 lbs of fat right from under the skin of my ass. As long as blood loss was controlled and enough skin was left to repair the wound, I’m sure I would be fine, although it might have some longer-term hormonal effects. Of course then I would not have much of an ass left at all, which would be very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/30 "2010-11-01T18:45:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then the part about “take no less” is meaningless if you can just keep taking bits until it equals one pound. I dont have a copy of MoV handy. I know Portia interpreted the contract as no more and no less but what was the original agreement? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/31 "2010-11-01T19:20:15Z")
I don’t think it is ever quoted in full. But the part about taking no less than a pound is meaningless only if Shylock stops cutting off pieces before he gets a pound total. I can see threatening him with the scenario where he has cut off fifteen and a half ounces, and then cuts off three quarters of an ounce - that would certainly violate the contract. But I don’t see any violation if Shylock cuts off smaller pieces on the way to chopping off the full pound. As mentioned, I don’t recall any mention of the contract saying the pound has to be cut off in one go. That’s only what Portia says. I wonder if there is any other mention of the terms of the contract in other stories, on which _The Merchant of Venice_ is based. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/32 "2010-11-01T19:26:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then the part about “take no less” is meaningless if you can just keep taking bits until it equals one pound. Why can’t it mean that he can’t stop taking until he’s taken his pound? “Give me a hundred dollars. No more, no less.” “Sure. Ten, twenty, thirty, forty…” ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/33 "2010-11-01T20:20:17Z")
The “Greed” victim in the movie Seven (forced to cut a pound of flesh from his body) died of blood loss, if memory serves. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/34 "2010-11-01T20:30:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I dont have a copy of MoV handy. I know Portia interpreted the contract as no more and no less but what was the original agreement? > [@](#): > > Act 1, Scene III: > SHYLOCK > This kindness will I show. > Go with me to a notary, seal me there > Your single bond; and, in a merry sport, > If you repay me not on such a day, > In such a place, such sum or sums as are > Express’d in the condition, let the forfeit > Be nominated for an equal pound > Of your fair flesh, to be cut off and taken > In what part of your body pleaseth me. > > Act 4, Scene I: > PORTIA > Why, this bond is forfeit; > And lawfully by this the Jew may claim > A pound of flesh, to be by him cut off > Nearest the merchant’s heart. Be merciful: > Take thrice thy money; bid me tear the bond. > > … > > SHYLOCK > Ay, his breast: > So says the bond: doth it not, noble judge? > ‘Nearest his heart:’ those are the very words. > > PORTIA > It is so. Are there balance here to weigh > The flesh? > > … > > PORTIA > A pound of that same merchant’s flesh is thine: > The court awards it, and the law doth give it. > > SHYLOCK > Most rightful judge! > > PORTIA > And you must cut this flesh from off his breast: > The law allows it, and the court awards it. > > SHYLOCK > Most learned judge! A sentence! Come, prepare! > > PORTIA > Tarry a little; there is something else. > This bond doth give thee here no jot of blood; > The words expressly are ‘a pound of flesh:’ > Take then thy bond, take thou thy pound of flesh; > But, in the cutting it, if thou dost shed > One drop of Christian blood, thy lands and goods > Are, by the laws of Venice, confiscate > Unto the state of Venice. > > … > > PORTIA > Therefore prepare thee to cut off the flesh. > Shed thou no blood, nor cut thou less nor more > But just a pound of flesh: if thou cut’st more > Or less than a just pound, be it but so much > As makes it light or heavy in the substance, > Or the division of the twentieth part > Of one poor scruple, nay, if the scale do turn > But in the estimation of a hair, > Thou diest and all thy goods are confiscate. From what Portia quotes, it would seem that the contract just says “a pound of flesh,” nothing about exactly a pound. However, in Act 1, Shylock mentions “an equal pound.” If that was actually in the contract, it could be interpreted as exactly a pound. However, there is also: > [@](#): > > PORTIA > Have by some surgeon, Shylock, on your charge, > To stop his wounds, lest he do bleed to death. > > SHYLOCK > Is it so nominated in the bond? > > PORTIA > It is not so express’d: but what of that? > 'Twere good you do so much for charity. > > SHYLOCK > I cannot find it; 'tis not in the bond. It is clear from this that the expectation is that Antonio might survive his wounds if he received medical treatment. It is Shylock’s insistence on adhering to the letter of the bond that gives Portia an opening to deny him taking any blood. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/35 "2010-11-02T00:25:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But the part about taking no less than a pound is meaningless only if Shylock stops cutting off pieces before he gets a pound total. That is exactly what makes it meaningless. Why would Portia add the part about “less nor more” if she intended to allow Shylock to cut the pound in such a way that it is impossible to have either less, or more? That is why it is meaningless. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Why can’t it mean that he can’t stop taking until he’s taken his pound? Why did Portia add the part about “less nor more” if it there is no risk of either less, or more? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/36 "2010-11-02T03:39:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why did Portia add the part about “less nor more” if it there is no risk of either less, or more? The actual answer, I think, is that she’s just messing with him. The limitation on taking blood is enough; now she’s just making up stuff. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/37 "2010-11-02T05:12:41Z")
If no blood is to be shed, then the contract is meaningless, as you can’t cut someone without bleeding. That’s the whole point of this made up loophole. It’s not good law, but it is entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/38 "2010-11-02T07:16:35Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Why can’t it mean that he can’t stop taking until he’s taken his pound? > > “Give me a hundred dollars. No more, no less.” > > “Sure. Ten, twenty, thirty, forty…” You can count out ten-spots from your wallet until you have a hundred, and then hand it over - no problem there. You can probably even count the notes in your wallet without removing any. But as Shylock’s bond is interpreted by the court, he has to take a pound in one go. The piece of flesh isn’t off until it’s completely severed, but once it’s off, it has to weigh a pound, no more or less. @The Second Stone: I believe the official line of the court is “You should have thought of that when you drew up the bond”. A notary worth his salt would have addressed the issues - whether blood can be shed; what is a contractually admissible error - before Shylock and Antonio signed. Shylock probably has a case against him for being a bumbling incompetent. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/39 "2010-11-02T14:16:16Z")
I’ve always thought that the court scene was a crock. Why is Portia pronouncing the judgement and not the judge? Then I saw the (US) legal system wherein many times the judge will rule however they want and then pick (or twist) the law to justify their decision. Al of the sudden, MoV made more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/40 "2010-11-02T14:44:11Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You can count out ten-spots from your wallet until you have a hundred, and then hand it over - no problem there. You can probably even count the notes in your wallet without removing any. But as Shylock’s bond is interpreted by the court, he has to take a pound in one go. The piece of flesh isn’t off until it’s completely severed, but once it’s off, it has to weigh a pound, no more or less. And this actually makes good sense. Cutting off a pound of flesh isn’t like paying out a set amount of money. If I’m paying you, I’m losing money, but that’s my sole injury. But with the pound of flesh, the injury isn’t just the loss of flesh, but the physical pain attendant upon its removal. That pain is minimized if you’re only permitted one cut - if you’re permitted as many cuts as it takes to get to one pound, my pain is far greater. Thus, it’s not unreasonable for a mercifully inclined judge (like Portia) to insist that the “pound of flesh” is a single unit, to be removed at once or not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958.md?page=3)