# Would you die if you lost "a pound of flesh"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958 "2010-10-31T06:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/41 "2010-11-02T15:27:16Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Thus, it’s not unreasonable for a mercifully inclined judge (like Portia) to insist that the “pound of flesh” is a single unit, to be removed at once or not at all. So is having a surgeon by, to dress his wound lest he bleed to death, but Portia shows no sign of being ready to enforce that. Because that is not in the bond. ISTM that the part about Shylock having to cut off exactly a pound, in one go, is just something she made up and is not necessary, given the blood exception. Darn activist judges… Regards, Sh[del]ylock[/del]odan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/42 "2010-11-02T16:08:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So is having a surgeon by, to dress his wound lest he bleed to death, but Portia shows no sign of being ready to enforce that. Because that is not in the bond. > > ISTM that the part about Shylock having to cut off exactly a pound, in one go, is just something she made up and is not necessary, given the blood exception. > > Darn activist judges… > > Regards, > Sh[del]ylock[/del]odan I disagree - what Shylock is really doing is pointing out that the surgeon is both extraneous to the core agreement of the “pound of flesh” and absent from the agreement. Thus, there really isn’t room for a judicial interpretation of the text that would include that requirement. However, the bond is silent as to the _means_ by which the pound of flesh will be removed from Antonio. (So far as we know.) This is an area in which the contract is ambiguous - any question as to the precise mechanism of removal would therefore be ripe for judicial interpretation. The judge would employ precedents if available, of course, but if this is a case of first impression she would look to documents surrounding the contract to try and ascertain the intent of the parties, and she would also have the right to determine that a given interpretation of the contract would be “unconscionable.” Whether or not you _agree_ with such a determination, I think it’s hard to argue that a finding that a contract permitting a series of cuts (rather than just one) to be unconscionable would be judicial activism as it’s commonly understood. The language is ambiguous on this point, which means the judge _must_interpret it one way or the other; either the contract permits repeated cuts or it does not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/43 "2010-11-02T17:24:38Z")
My wife lost more than a pound of flesh in two places to my dismay. She’s still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/44 "2010-11-02T18:20:52Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I disagree - what Shylock is really doing is pointing out that the surgeon is both extraneous to the core agreement of the “pound of flesh” and absent from the agreement. Thus, there really isn’t room for a judicial interpretation of the text that would include that requirement. The notion that the pound has to be cut off in one go is equally absent from the agreement (AFAWK). Therefore there shouldn’t be room for a judicial interpretation that would include _that_ requirement. > [@](#): > > However, the bond is silent as to the _means_ by which the pound of flesh will be removed from Antonio. (So far as we know.) This is an area in which the contract is ambiguous - any question as to the precise mechanism of removal would therefore be ripe for judicial interpretation. You can say that about anything. The contract doesn’t say anything about the color of the handle of the knife, or what Antonio has had for breakfast that morning, or any other random detail Portia wants to make up and treat as if it were relevant. The point of the surgeon exchange is to establish that, unless it is in the contract, one cannot impose arbitrary requirements. Having a surgeon is such a requirement - but it doesn’t say so in the bond, and therefore Shylock does not have to abide by it. It does not say in the bond that the pound has to be cut off all at once either, yet Portia does impose that requirement. The notion that “cutting it off all at once” is a requirement is like invalidating a debt because the person counted the bills into his creditor’s hand one at a time instead of handing them over all at once. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/45 "2010-11-02T18:49:23Z")
Wait! I thought Portia was the responant’s attorney. She was the Judge?! 1. Isn’t that a severe conflict of interest? 2. So she was impersonating a judge? 3. Would her judgement have any judicial weight? (Cue doper with PhD or SJD in medieval Venician law. I’m sure there’s at least 2 or 3.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958/46 "2010-11-02T19:21:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Wait! I thought Portia was the responant’s attorney. She was the Judge?! More or less. The ultimate authority to make a judgement is with the Duke, but he is obligated to rule according to the laws of Venice: > [@](#): > > BASSANIO [addressing the Duke]: > … And I beseech you, > Wrest once the law to your authority: > To do a great right, do a little wrong, > And curb this cruel devil of his will. > > PORTIA > It must not be; there is no power in Venice > Can alter a decree established: > 'Twill be recorded for a precedent, > And many an error by the same example > Will rush into the state: it cannot be. The Duke has requested the opinion of a learned doctor of laws, Bellario. Since he is ill, he has sent his law clerk Balthasar, who is actually Portia in disguise: > [@](#): > > DUKE > This letter from Bellario doth commend > A young and learned doctor to our court. > Where is he? > > NERISSA > He attendeth here hard by, > To know your answer, whether you’ll admit him. > > DUKE > With all my heart. Some three or four of you > Go give him courteous conduct to this place. > Meantime the court shall hear Bellario’s letter. > > Clerk > [Reads] > Your grace shall understand that at the receipt of > your letter I am very sick: but in the instant that > your messenger came, in loving visitation was with > me a young doctor of Rome; his name is Balthasar. I > acquainted him with the cause in controversy between > the Jew and Antonio the merchant: we turned o’er > many books together: he is furnished with my > opinion; which, bettered with his own learning, the > greatness whereof I cannot enough commend, comes > with him, at my importunity, to fill up your grace’s > request in my stead. I beseech you, let his lack of > years be no impediment to let him lack a reverend > estimation; for I never knew so young a body with so > old a head. I leave him to your gracious > acceptance, whose trial shall better publish his > commendation. > [@](#): > > 1. Isn’t that a severe conflict of interest? > 2. So she was impersonating a judge? Yes to both; but no one knows her true identity. > [@](#): > > 1. Would her judgement have any judicial weight? (Cue doper with PhD or SJD in medieval Venician law. I’m sure there’s at least 2 or 3.) The Duke is really the one who is making the decision on how to enforce the contract. As long as she gives him a rationale to deny it, it gives him an out. So it may not matter where the information came from. At any rate, she gets away with the deception; she only reveals it later to Bassiano and Antonio. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-die-if-you-lost-a-pound-of-flesh/558958.md?page=2)