# Would you give up free will for world peace? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800 "2023-09-28T01:17:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![a\_dudes\_thought\_s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@a\_dudes\_thought\_s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a_dudes_thought_s)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/1 "2023-09-28T01:17:18Z")
I have been watching a lot of videos of people asking pastors, preachers and such why there is evil in the world. The answer they usually give is God wants us to have free will. My question is this. Say God revealed himself to all humans’ beings on the planet and gave us a choice. Say that God told us he had a plan, but his plan would take decades or centuries more. However, we could have peace on the planet now. However, everyone giving up their free will would be the only way to do it. Let’s say God took a vote of all human beings on the planet. What would your vote be. Would peace on earth be worth giving up your free will and ability to harm, abuse and mistreat others? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/2 "2023-09-28T01:28:05Z")
I reject the premise. There is no such thing as free will in the sense you imagine it, it is a religious fantasy. The harm in the world is not attributable to free will, it is attributable to selfishness, cruelty, psychopathy, etc. I think a better way to express what you’re asking might be: would you be willing to accept modifications to your brain to change your personality so that you would be less selfish, have more empathy, never be inclined to harm others? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/3 "2023-09-28T01:32:03Z")
What the hell is this “God” thing? Is it anything like Og? And if so, why would you think it is male? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/4 "2023-09-28T01:34:53Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > why would you think it is male A woman wouldn’t be such a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/5 "2023-09-28T01:52:58Z")
A less philosophical and arguably more practical take on this would be the movie Equilibrium and others of the same sort. That much of the violence and conflict in the world are a result of our emotional fixations - in this vehicle, drugs are used to dull/remove such things, although genetic engineering, brain surgery, or implants (to various degrees of sci-fi) could arguably do the same. Either way, you get into the situation that if there is no ‘free will’ as the OP seems to be intending to use the term, there isn’t much point in doing much of anything, and, as set up in the OP, there wasn’t ever a POINT to anything either. God set up some weird thought experiment writ large, didn’t like it, and gave the participants a chance to opt out for a total reset. Game over. Inevitable TV Trope: > **[The Evils of Free Will - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEvilsOfFreeWill)** > > There is so much suffering in the world, so much hate, inequality, ignorance. And the cause of all this evil is nothing more than humans themselves and their pesky free will. Hobbes Was Right. We are selfish, narcissistic, violent, readily tread … ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/6 "2023-09-28T02:02:20Z")
Tough call, but I would, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/7 "2023-09-28T03:51:32Z")
In what way do I currently have free will? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/8 "2023-09-28T04:14:11Z")
If I could be convinced such an omnipotent being exists? Sure. That being’s mere existence negates any free will I might pretend to have. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/9 "2023-09-28T04:20:32Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What the hell is this “God” thing? Is it anything like Og? And if so, why would you think it is male? If God were a woman a mans penis would be on his chin ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/10 "2023-09-28T05:06:59Z")
Answering the OP: Of course not. World peace will have to be attained some other way. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/11 "2023-09-28T05:25:35Z")
Do I retain the illusion of free will? For instance, is it that anyone that has a choice between doing good vs. evil considers their choice to be totally free and without external influence… but then they always happen to make the good choice? Or, is it more that a demon appears on your shoulder before any choice, promising to inflict indescribable torture on you if you choose evil? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/12 "2023-09-28T05:34:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Or, is it more that a demon appears on your shoulder before any choice, promising to inflict indescribable torture on you if you choose evil? Except that the angelic critter appears on your other shoulder exhorting you to accept the soul-cleansing (which, of course, you can take after doing the evil thing and be just fine). ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/13 "2023-09-28T05:38:06Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I reject the premise. There is no such thing as free will in the sense you imagine it, it is a religious fantasy The premise is flawed, but for a different reason. Free will is brought up in relation to the question of theodicy—why, if God is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, things still seem a bit shit, on the whole—because of Plantinga’s ‘[free-will defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga%27s_free-will_defense)’. If there was free will, then the combination of tri-omni God and the existence of evil would not be inconsistent. But then, that combination isn’t inconsistent, even absent free will (we’ve shown an example where tri-omni God and evil coherently coexist, but then, that obviously means it’s _possible_ for them to coexist). So there’s no dichotomy between ‘having free will’ and ‘evil existing’, even in the presence of a tri-omni God. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/14 "2023-09-28T06:34:45Z")
Free will is the gap between my level of introspection and the actual functioning of my brain. No brain is powerful enough to have complete insight into its own workings–it would have to simulate itself to do so, which is impossible. So for any decision, there will be an element which appears to come out of nowhere–even if you recognize that it must come from either a deterministic or random process, you can’t pin it down any more than that. You made a decision, but you don’t know _why_. And you don’t have enough information or insight to say if it could have been otherwise, or what might have made you change your mind. Thus it feels like you truly did have a choice in the matter. I think the same idea must apply to any intelligence, since an arbitrarily powerful brain still can’t simulate itself. Every decision will have an uncertain origin to it, which might as well be called free will. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/15 "2023-09-28T06:36:39Z")
> Would you give up free will for world peace? No, because there’s no guarantee that that would be the result. I’d prefer to muddle along negotiating my way around fallible human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/16 "2023-09-28T06:53:33Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > …Thus it feels like you truly did have a choice in the matter. Sure. I agree with all that. But the key point is “feels like”. The strong intuition that you could have done otherwise in identical circumstances is an _illusion_. Yet it is fundamental to Christianity that it is _not_ an illusion. And our criminal justice system assumes that it is _not_ an illusion. Both are based on a fictitious foundation that we could have done otherwise in precisely identical circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/17 "2023-09-28T13:36:24Z")
Many of y’all have some ideas about who you are versus what isn’t you but which ‘controls’ you that I find quite odd. I’d have to agree that the OP should define the term “free will” as they wish it used in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/18 "2023-09-28T14:00:49Z")
Wasn’t there some line like ‘Those who would sacrifice liberty for peace deserve neither’? I go with that. Free will (however you understand the term). ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/19 "2023-09-28T14:15:11Z")
It would have to be a damn convincing god. Otherwise: sorry, I lied. You’re all my slaves now and I want you to go and fight in this war… ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800/20 "2023-09-28T14:19:01Z")
For whirled peas, maybe. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-give-up-free-will-for-world-peace/990800.md?page=2)