# Would you have shot the gun confiscators when they came to your door? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770 "2009-04-11T20:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/61 "2009-04-12T14:08:38Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > That’s frightening if true. Never heard of burning the constitution temporarily for emergency issues. Allow me to give you a refresher course on American history. [Alien and Sedition Acts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_acts) [Suspension of Habeus Corpus During U.S. Civil War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_during_the_Civil_War_and_Reconstruction) [Suspension of Habeus Corpus During War on Terrorism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_during_the_War_on_Terrorism) [Habeus Corpus in the U.S. - See “Suspension During WWII and its Aftermath”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeus_corpus#United_States) [U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 9 - See the Suspension Clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_clause#Section_9:_Limits_on_Congress) I’m sure there are more examples. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/62 "2009-04-12T14:22:06Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Allow me to give you a refresher course on American history. > > [Alien and Sedition Acts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_acts) > [Suspension of Habeus Corpus During U.S. Civil War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_during_the_Civil_War_and_Reconstruction) > [Suspension of Habeus Corpus During War on Terrorism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_during_the_War_on_Terrorism) > [Habeus Corpus in the U.S. - See “Suspension During WWII and its Aftermath”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeus_corpus#United_States) > [U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 9 - See the Suspension Clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_clause#Section_9:_Limits_on_Congress) > > I’m sure there are more examples. A quick reading of the suspension during the “War on Terrorism” seems to indicate the US courts agree that it is unconstitutional. I can’t get over this line of reasoning: > [@](#): > > In January 2007, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee that in his opinion: "There is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution. There’s a prohibition against taking it away. So, they’re not taking it away, you just do not have it to begin with. It would be a bad dream if it were not for the fact that this was the US government for eight years. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/63 "2009-04-12T16:27:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Looks like this is just more gun owners’ paranoid persecution fantasy bullshit: > **[Criticism of the government response to Hurricane Katrina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Confiscation_of_firearms)** > > The government response to Hurricane Katrina fell under heavy criticism during the aftermath in the United States in 2005. Local, state, and federal government were accused of failing to prepare and respond effectively to the natural disaster. > Hurricane Katrina landed on August 29, 2005. Within days, the US Government's role in preparations and responding to the storm was covered in heavy public debate. It is thought to be the largely televised footage of distressed politicians and residents w... That would be the state lying, Hentor. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Even National Guard troops, armed with assault rifles, were used for house to house searches, seizing firearms and attempting to get those remaining in the city to leave.[72] > […] > After refusing to admit that it had any seized firearms, the city revealed in mid-March that it did have a cache of some 1000 firearms seized after the hurricane; this disclosure came after the NRA filed a motion in court to hold the city in contempt for failure to comply with the U.S. District Court’s earlier order to return all seized firearms. On April 14, 2006, it was announced that the city will begin to return seized firearms, however as of early 2008, many firearms were still in police possession, and the matter was still in court.[70] The matter was finally settled in favor of the NRA in October of 2008. Per the agreement, the city was required to relax the strict proof of ownership requirements previously used, and was to release firearms to their owners with an affidavit claiming ownership and a background check to verify that the owner is legally able to possess a firearm.[73] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo) [72] [http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/10/09/nra\_to\_settle\_suit\_over\_katrina\_gun\_seizures/](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/10/09/nra_to_settle_suit_over_katrina_gun_seizures/) [73] “No one will be (able to be?) armed. We’re going to take all the weapons.” There’s video of the sheriff saying it. There’s video of them arresting people in houses and taking their guns. Right there. See it? This is pretty much settled fact, Hentor. Are you denying history? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/64 "2009-04-12T17:07:26Z")
I was reading this week that the jump start for a citizen arming itself came at the Paul Revere ride. Lexington and Concord were our arsenals. The Brits came in and captured them both leaving us in a bad place. We had to rely on the citizens arms for a while after that. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/65 "2009-04-12T17:49:48Z")
Partially. (Family history says that our rifle came from a british soldier watering the trees behind a pub.) But remember, up till after the Civil War, with no standing army, even those arsenals were largely privately owned. Eg, John Williams, who owned, say, the Williamsberg Plantation would decide, “I want to be a captain.” And he’d buy some cannons and some rifles and make some uniforms, and everyone’d join up in town. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/66 "2009-04-12T18:40:03Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > So in the OP, when the gun collectors came around, they were in the right. You have to right to defend yourselves unless they attempt to commit an unlawful act of violence. Taking your guns away at the time would be the orders that the Police Officers would have been given. They’d just be following their duty. Whether or not they were in the right would depend entirely on whether the orders they were given were _lawful_ orders. Which brings us to the next point: > [@Ro0sh](#): > > Also, if the Government enacts a “[State of Emergency](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Emergency)” it seems that they can suspend civil liberties and such (which allowed them to go around breaking the 2nd amendment)- so in such a state, it WOULDN’T be against your Right to Bear Arms, because now you’re in a state of new policies and rules. Since when does a “State of Emergency” allow the government to suspend the Bill of Rights? The Constitution specifically allows habeas corpus to be suspended in certain situations (specifically “in cases of rebellion or invasion”), but I’m not aware of anything in the Constitution that would grant the government unlimited power under any circumstance. Would it also be legal for the government to regulate the exercise of religion or speech during a natural disaster? How about instituting a set of cruel and unusual punishments in an effort to reign in lawlessness by making a public example of a few troublemakers? I will echo **ParentalAdvisory** ’s sentiment that the _Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act_, while an appropriate recognition that the confiscations were not right, was in fact, much like the Bill of Rights itself, merely an exception to powers not granted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/67 "2009-04-12T20:34:13Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Just out of curiosity > > Lets say that some govt weenie gets a brain storm, Katrina redux hits and same or similar situation hits a major city and instead of that bright idea > > He or she invokes the second amendment , specifically that part about a well regulated militia. All able bodied persons with weapons are required to report to designated areas and be deputized or something. > > What then > > Declan Then they can go fuck themselves, that’s not what a Militia is. A militia has no use in that situation, Militias cannot, by and large, enforce peace and law efficiently. They’re not trained to do so. They’re trained to resist _“enforced peace and law”_, whether foreign or domestic. And, while I disagree with **Lumpy** , I respect that he would be willing to do that for his community. Since Militias are voluntary forces, AFAIK, they could only _request_ you join. > [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > I will echo **ParentalAdvisory** ’s sentiment that the _Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act_, while an appropriate recognition that the confiscations were not right, was in fact, much like the Bill of Rights itself, merely an exception to powers not granted in the first place. Echoed again. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Looks like this is just more gun owners’ paranoid persecution fantasy bullshit: > > [New NRA Campaign Asks Lawmakers to Pledge Not to Confiscate Guns in Times of Crisis - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Story?id=1972662&page=1) > > Of course, these are folks who fantasize about civilization breaking down, when they’re going to have their moment to shine! Wolverines! Looks like more lying politician bullshit. And more **Hentor** making it a point to insult those of us who own guns. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/68 "2009-04-12T23:47:40Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I would obey all lawful order from civil authorities. You and me both. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/69 "2009-04-13T00:10:22Z")
The three of us. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/70 "2009-04-13T01:12:30Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > “No one will be (able to be?) armed. We’re going to take all the weapons.” There’s video of the sheriff saying it. There’s video of them arresting people in houses and taking their guns. Right there. See it? This is pretty much settled fact, Hentor. Are you denying history? Well, there’s no video of anyone being arrested in a house, or of the police even talking to anyone in a house. However, the narrator does say that the police did do so. Based on that, it appears that I was wrong, and I apologize for that. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/71 "2009-04-13T01:25:00Z")
Well, there’s video of guys sitting on what appears to be the front of a house in handcuffs, talking about their guns being taken. I admit that didn’t show the actual entry and confiscation, but it does seem to be fairly conclusive. I did note no actual confiscation was shown, but figured the implication was strong enough to allow it. Thank you, accepted. Also, it’s factual that over a thousand guns were confiscated. Assuming 15 guns a house, that’s still a lot of people. I’d hate to think it was just from random people walking the street. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/72 "2009-04-13T01:34:30Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > You and me both. Again I ask, who decides whether the order is lawful or not, and in what way do you disobey a supposedly unlawful order? ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/73 "2009-04-13T01:36:39Z")
I would not have shot them, I would have told them that I lost my firearms in a rather tragic boating accident. [http://www.agfc.com/!userfiles/gallery/medium/accident\_md.jpg](http://www.agfc.com/!userfiles/gallery/medium/accident_md.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/74 "2009-04-13T01:49:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask, who decides whether the order is lawful or not, and in what way do you disobey a supposedly unlawful order? You know what the answer to that question is. I will. I will also be the one who lives with such consequences as may be. Proceed with the sneering that you’re aching to do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/75 "2009-04-13T03:47:27Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You know what the answer to that question is. I will. I will also be the one who lives with such consequences as may be. Proceed with the sneering that you’re aching to do. Just as I thought. You haven’t got the guts to actually say what you would do if the law came for your weapons-just false bravado and broad hints. What say the rest of you? Is **Scumpup** the person _you_ would turn to for legal advice? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/76 "2009-04-13T04:06:34Z")
I think pretty much everyone in this thread would do exactly as they were told. It’s easy to bluster on a message board. Only a truly, unhinged psychopath would murder police officers trying to do their job. It would also be really stupid. If the shooter wan’t instantly killed by other cops, he’d end up in prison and lose all rights to own a firearm for the rest of his life. It’s not like you’d be able to get away with it and go about your life. ETA, on second thought, I think most people would just hide their guns and deny they had them. I doubt the cops would search that thoroughly. I think they were more concerned about the retards walking around in the streets with them that with those holed up in their homes. In any case, only those who were actually clinically disturbed would try to have a shootout. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/77 "2009-04-13T04:12:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask, who decides whether the order is lawful or not, and in what way do you disobey a supposedly unlawful order? The person being given the order. If they’re wrong in the opinion of the courts, or maybe a jury of their peers, then they may face consequences though. If the officer tries to use force to institute compliance, regardless of lawfulness, then they then they could face some problems as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/78 "2009-04-13T04:18:40Z")
There’s no chance the officers would be in any legal trouble for enforcing the order. Even if you want to argue that they were following an unlawful order, you’d still have to prove they KNEW it was an unlawful order, and that would be all but impossible. I guarantee, it would be no defense for anyone who tried to shoot at the cops. Joe citizen doesn’t get to decide he’s allowed to kill cops just because he has personally adjudicated that cop’s order to be “unlawful.” There is no more question of “self-defense” involved than there is with any other law that LE personel use force to enforce. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/79 "2009-04-13T05:00:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no chance the officers would be in any legal trouble for enforcing the order. Even if you want to argue that they were following an unlawful order, you’d still have to prove they KNEW it was an unlawful order, and that would be all but impossible. > > I guarantee, it would be no defense for anyone who tried to shoot at the cops. Joe citizen doesn’t get to decide he’s allowed to kill cops just because he has personally adjudicated that cop’s order to be “unlawful.” There is no more question of “self-defense” involved than there is with any other law that LE personel use force to enforce. How far does this go? If you’re assaulted and unable to defend yourself, in lawless post Katrina New Orleans, after the confiscation will the cops pay your medical bills, therapy, and possibly funeral expenses for you and your family? If the police wanted to cuff you to a tree in Compton with the word “snitch” tapped to your forehead would resisting that be okay? At what level of jeopardy do cop orders expose you to risk without resisting being an act of self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770/80 "2009-04-13T05:23:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > How far does this go? > > If you’re assaulted and unable to defend yourself, in lawless post Katrina New Orleans, after the confiscation will the cops pay your medical bills, therapy, and possibly funeral expenses for you and your family? > > If the police wanted to cuff you to a tree in Compton with the word “snitch” tapped to your forehead would resisting that be okay? > > At what level of jeopardy do cop orders expose you to risk without resisting being an act of self defense? And who will pay your bail(if you’re lucky) or your funeral expenses(if you’re not?) You have two choices: 1. Hand over the weapons when asked, and fight it out in court or 2. Be a third-rate Rambo wannabe, shoot it out, and lose your weapons _and_ possibly your life but certainly your freedom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-have-shot-the-gun-confiscators-when-they-came-to-your-door/492770.md?page=5)