# Would you let your 4 year old son wear a Snow White dress for Halloween? I wouldn't. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243 "2010-08-24T03:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/101 "2010-08-25T02:40:55Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > You don’t think it would be uncomfortable explaining to the neighbourhood why Billy was Snow White, as opposed to Darth Vader? Um, no. First of all, I don’t owe “the neighbourhood” an explanation of why and how I do anything unless it violates my Homeowners’ Association contract. If one of them asks you why you allowed Billy to dress as Snow White, you say, “He wanted to and it’s Hallow-fucking-ween” and if the neighbors have anything further to say on the matter in a negative way, why would you care what morons like that think anyway? Invite them to obtain lives so that the neighbor’s four-year old’s Halloween costume is not such a large concern to them. Yes, I am serious. I honestly do not understand the issue. Wouldn’t you be embarrassed if you had to drag your kid around trick or treating with tears streaming down his little Darth Vadar cheeks, having to explain to the neighbors (whose opinions you care so much about) that the fun of your child’s Halloween was ruined because you wouldn’t let him dress in the costume he wanted? If he dresses as a zombie, will you be embarrassed? After all, “normal” people don’t walk around trying to eat other people. Or are you just afraid that if he dresses as a zombie at age four, he will grow up to crave brains for dinner? ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/102 "2010-08-25T02:45:37Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > > > Articulate what’s embarrassing about it. > > Your car just got spraypainted pink. And frilly dingleballs are hung from the mirror. Why do you care what anyone thinks? I’m not embarrassed, I’m pissed at the vandalism. Why would I be embarrassed? What do people who see my car that way think? That I have no taste and did that to my car on purpose? People who know me would know I would never do that–I prefer orange or green to pink. People who don’t know me and only see my car may think I did it on purpose and think that but who cares? Their opinion means nothing to me because I don’t know them enough to know whether I should value what they think. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/103 "2010-08-25T02:47:46Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Cut to Halloween. If my son, at four years old, had wanted to be Snow White I would have talked him out of it. Not so much to save him from anything, but to save me and my wife from embarrassment. Now, I know a lot of you people, and especially you enlightened ones without kids, would try to ridicule me here, but if I can persuade my son to be, say Darth Vader instead of Snow White, why wouldn’t I do just that? You don’t think it would be uncomfortable explaining to the neighbourhood why Billy was Snow White, as opposed to Darth Vader? My Number Two Nephew just turned 5. He adores Darth Vader. My brother was just complaining to me how embarrasing it was to note that all his friends’ kids were walking around in shirts saying “Honesty” or “Love” or stuff… while Number Two Nephew is in a Darth Vader shirt that said “Betrayal. Murder. Evil.” But, Number Two Nephew is going as Darth Vader for Halloween. Because my brother correctly realized that _being a parent is about making sacrifices for your kid_. I’m guessing you didn’t intend to imply that it would be better for little kids to emulate evil child-killing mass-murderers than to cross-dress for Halloween. But… there you did. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/104 "2010-08-25T03:00:38Z")
> [@History\_Geek](#): > > Nothing dictates all gay males have to adopt feminine characteristics, either. Why can’t a gay man be the family breadwinner, work his 8 hours in a factory, and expect dinner on the table when he gets home at five? There is just as much stereotyping done by the ultra-left as there is on the ultra-right. Both extremes are wrong. This is a bit of a left turn – did someone say that all gay men have to be feminine? ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/105 "2010-08-25T03:02:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I still seriously want to know how **Chessic Sense** would react if his child would end up a transgender. Despite sticking to the whole “strict gender role” thing. Just because I’m curious. > > (I feel bad too if his daughters ever want to play sports. He also said “girls will be girls.” :rolleyes:) IIRC he’s also the guy who doesn’t really believe he could ever lose his girlfriend to another woman, even though she does like to sleep with them from time to time, since they don’t offer what he as a man offers. So clearly these ‘strict gender roles’ run deep with him. (Apologies if I have recalled this wrong, but I seem to remember his comments from a thread a few months back). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/106 "2010-08-25T03:03:09Z")
> [@evilbeth](#): > > After all, “normal” people don’t walk around trying to eat other people. They don’t? Uh-oh. If you’ll excuse me for a moment . . . ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/107 "2010-08-25T03:21:06Z")
Great comments from the childless, and the transient rent crowd who aren’t friends with the neighbours. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/108 "2010-08-25T03:22:06Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Great comments from the childless, and the transient rent crowd who aren’t friends with the neighbours. Thanks. Who are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/109 "2010-08-25T03:22:34Z")
If my neighbors were the kind who sneered at me for having an “effeminate” car or who thought that my child wasn’t a person with feelings of his own but rather an extension of me, then I think I’d be looking to move anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/110 "2010-08-25T03:36:17Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Great comments from the childless, and the transient rent crowd who aren’t friends with the neighbours. Thanks. I’m friends with my neighbours. Their kids play dress-up, including playing in clothes from the opposite sex. You need to move to a better neighbourhood. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/111 "2010-08-25T03:36:32Z")
> [@evilbeth](#): > > > [@Leaffan](#): > > > > Your car just got spraypainted pink. And frilly dingleballs are hung from the mirror. Why do you care what anyone thinks? > > I’m not embarrassed, I’m pissed at the vandalism. Why would I be embarrassed? > > What do people who see my car that way think? That I have no taste and did that to my car on purpose? People who know me would know I would never do that–I prefer orange or green to pink. People who don’t know me and only see my car may think I did it on purpose and think that but who cares? Their opinion means nothing to me because I don’t know them enough to know whether I should value what they think. Metaphor. Heard of it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/112 "2010-08-25T03:42:43Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Your car just got spraypainted pink. And frilly dingleballs are hung from the mirror. Okay, let’s add one line to that quote: “And that would be embarrassing because \_\_\_\_\_\_.” Please fill in the blank. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/113 "2010-08-25T03:43:59Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > If my neighbors were the kind who sneered at me for having an “effeminate” car or who thought that my child wasn’t a person with feelings of his own but rather an extension of me, then I think I’d be looking to move anyway. Neighbours don’t sneer. Neighbours are friends. Friends wonder about my sanity, when clearly a 5 minute conversation with child will convince him to be something other than a Disney princess for Halloween. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/114 "2010-08-25T03:46:55Z")
But there’s nothing wrong with dressing up as a Disney princess. So far your reasoning for why it’s bad is that the neighbors will talk but now you’re saying that they don’t sneer at you for things like that. So what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/115 "2010-08-25T03:48:21Z")
Seriously, I don’t see what the problem is. It’s embarrassing. OK. Say why. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/116 "2010-08-25T03:50:09Z")
I’m not sure this is entirely fair to **Leaffan**. Violating cultural norms can cause embarrassment because they’re violating cultural norms, that’s all. There’s no reason why it should be embarrassing, it just\* is\*. That’s how we intelligent monkeys control one another’s behavior so we don’t eat each other for brunch. Would you be embarrassed to find yourself outside sleepwalking in your tighty-whities? Probably. But why? It’s not like you’re showing any more than some men at the beach. Heck, you’re sleepwalking, so it’s not even your fault, it’s out of your control. Still, most of us (me included) would be terribly embarrassed, even mortified. It’s a cliche nightmare scenario, it’s so widely understood to cause embarrassment. I think pretending not to understand why someone might be embarrassed for his neighbors to see his child, with his apparent approval, flouting cultural norms, is more than a bit argumentative and disingenuous. And I believe that as someone who completely understands that it’s an illogical cultural norm that’s probably on its way out, anyhow. But still, guys… do you really not grok why it might be embarrassing? I do. I just think my kid is more important than my embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/117 "2010-08-25T03:50:30Z")
I think the posters saying dressing up like a woman is freaky or wrong are going to have egg on their faces when their kids grow up to be the next Johnny Thunders or Sylvain Sylvain. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/118 "2010-08-25T04:04:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think pretending not to understand why someone might be embarrassed for his neighbors to see his child, with his apparent approval, flouting cultural norms, is more than a bit argumentative and disingenuous. And I believe that as someone who completely understands that it’s an illogical cultural norm that’s probably on its way out, anyhow. But still, guys… do you really not grok why it might be embarrassing? I do. I just think my kid is more important than my embarrassment. I’m not pretending anything. It isn’t good enough to say “that’s embarrassing” and then treat that as a reason in itself. If I was to respond as if he had already said what is obviously true – that it’s embarrassing because they think your kid’s a fairy – we’d have to have a tedious argument about whether or not that particular brand of homophobia or misogyny was the operative one, and how I was finding a way to make this be about something it isn’t really about. It’s nothing new – make the other side mention salient fact X first, and then get bent out of shape when they do, because _you_ never said anything at _all_ about that; why do they have to play the X card? So if it’s embarrassing, **Leaffan** can say why. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/119 "2010-08-25T04:13:58Z")
Embarrasing because it falls out of societal norms. Embarrasing because at the age of four, I as the parent have every tool at my diposal to ensure that this particular costume doesn’t cause undue controversy. Embarrasing because I can, or should, be able to steer him to something more appropriate for his gender. See my previous post on dance lessons and don’t be jerks for the sake of being jerks. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/120 "2010-08-25T04:20:14Z")
No, I would honestly be more embarrassed if my kids told my friends that I refused to allow him to dress as Snow White on a holiday where everyone else is dressed up in costumes. I have long wondered if maybe I’m missing a vital chemical in my brain for things like this but no, my kid choosing to violate cultural norms does not embarrass me. Rather, it intrigues me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=7)