# Would you let your 4 year old son wear a Snow White dress for Halloween? I wouldn't. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243 "2010-08-24T03:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/121 "2010-08-25T04:24:56Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > > [@evilbeth](#): > > > > I’m not embarrassed, I’m pissed at the vandalism. Why would I be embarrassed? > > > > What do people who see my car that way think? That I have no taste and did that to my car on purpose? People who know me would know I would never do that–I prefer orange or green to pink. People who don’t know me and only see my car may think I did it on purpose and think that but who cares? Their opinion means nothing to me because I don’t know them enough to know whether I should value what they think. > > Metaphor. Heard of it? Yes. Your metaphor is flawed if you were trying to find a scenario in which I would be embarrassed to compare the Snow White scandal. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/122 "2010-08-25T04:31:13Z")
Now, what would embarrass me is if I found out my kid called your kid a name disparaging him for dressing like “a girl” when he dressed as Snow White for Halloween. I would be ashamed of myself as a parent that I hadn’t taught my child better and embarrassed that my friends might think I raised my child to make fun of others for being comfortable being who they are as long as they aren’t hurting anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/123 "2010-08-25T05:03:30Z")
> [@evilbeth](#): > > Now, what would embarrass me is if I found out my kid called your kid a name disparaging him for dressing like “a girl” when he dressed as Snow White for Halloween. I would be ashamed of myself as a parent that I hadn’t taught my child better and embarrassed that my friends might think I raised my child to make fun of others for being comfortable being who they are as long as they aren’t hurting anyone else. I certainly agree with that. Can we call a truce now? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lshaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e36b37/32.png) [@lshaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lshaw)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/124 "2010-08-25T06:56:53Z")
I am no parent, but I would like to think that if I were, I would have bigger fish to fry than a 4 year old’s choice of Halloween costume. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/125 "2010-08-25T11:25:06Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Embarrasing because it falls out of societal norms. Given how many four year olds choose all manner of costumes, including boys choosing dresses, and given that we’re talking about Halloween, when the entire point is to wear whatever (and when adults regularly push the bounds of both gender and basic decency) does it _really_ fall outside of societal norms, or is that just a convenient – though rather flimsy – excuse? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/126 "2010-08-25T12:02:58Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > > [@Leaffan](#): > > > > Embarrasing because it falls out of societal norms. > > Given how many four year olds choose all manner of costumes, including boys choosing dresses, and given that we’re talking about Halloween, when the entire point is to wear whatever (and when adults regularly push the bounds of both gender and basic decency) does it _really_ fall outside of societal norms, or is that just a convenient – though rather flimsy – excuse? Excuse for what? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/127 "2010-08-25T12:04:41Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > > [@tumbleddown](#): > > > > Given how many four year olds choose all manner of costumes, including boys choosing dresses, and given that we’re talking about Halloween, when the entire point is to wear whatever (and when adults regularly push the bounds of both gender and basic decency) does it _really_ fall outside of societal norms, or is that just a convenient – though rather flimsy – excuse? > > Excuse for what? Your own prejudices against the idea of boys wearing feminine clothing? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/128 "2010-08-25T12:45:35Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Embarrasing because it falls out of societal norms. Embarrasing because at the age of four, I as the parent have every tool at my diposal to ensure that this particular costume doesn’t cause undue controversy. Embarrasing because I can, or should, be able to steer him to something more appropriate for his gender. See my previous post on dance lessons and don’t be jerks for the sake of being jerks. Do you comprehend that Halloween is a time to have fun by dressing up as something you’re _ **not** _? The only way it would be inappropriate for your son to dress as Snow White would be if he actually \*\*\*is \*\*\*Snow White. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/129 "2010-08-25T12:49:29Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Do you comprehend that Halloween is a time to have fun by dressing up as something you’re _ **not** _? The only way it would be inappropriate for your son to dress as Snow White would be if he actually \*\*\*is \*\*\*Snow White. Really? Is that what Halloween is all about? Wow. I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening me with your wisdom and knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/130 "2010-08-25T12:57:43Z")
How about if he dressed up for Halloween as a dog or a cat? Or with other friends of his as a school bus? Would any of those costumes embarass you? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/131 "2010-08-25T12:59:42Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > How about if he dressed up for Halloween as a dog or a cat? Or with other friends of his as a school bus? Would any of those costumes embarass you? Of course not. Don’t be silly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/132 "2010-08-25T13:56:06Z")
So dressing up outside of one’s species is OK, and dressing up as an inanimate object is OK, but dressing up as a member of the opposite sex of one’s own spcies is not OK. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/133 "2010-08-25T14:03:53Z")
Specifically, the question was “Would you let your 4 year old son wear a Snow White dress for Halloween?” My response was, “no.” If you’re trying to read anything else into my response then you’re clutching at straws. My position on gender equality and gay rights is well-known; I am very much a staunch supporter of these. That does not preclude me from feeling embarrassed if my 4 year old son went out in public wearing a Snow White dress. Pile on all you want. All I did was answer the question based on my own gut feelings. And again, don’t try to read more into that than what it is. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/134 "2010-08-25T14:41:15Z")
Okay, I’ll bite. You’ve lived in this neighborhood since before your kids were born. You’ve made friends with the neighbours, and even though you have friends elsewhere, you’re going to see the ones down the block more than the ones on the other side of town ( **Leaffan** lives in a big city, IIRC). You’re the kind of neighborhood where someone has a bbq every weekend and invites everyone, and of course there’s the big garage sale. Your kids all mingle and play together, perhaps the guy a few doors down is a good carpenter and builds them a treehouse. Then your kid defies traditional gender roles for Halloween. Suddenly those suburban moms start saying their kids can’t hang with yours any more. The next bbq comes up and no one tells you, so if you ask to join up, they say they didn’t buy enough food. They let you participate in the garage sale, but you find everyone treats you awkwardly when you try to enter a discussion. It happens y’all, it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/135 "2010-08-25T14:44:08Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > … And again, don’t try to read more into that than what it is. You must be new here – Welcome to the Internet! and good luck with _that_ ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/136 "2010-08-25T14:52:04Z")
I’d have no problem with my hypothetical 4 year old dressing like Snow White or any other female character. That’s why it’s considered dress-up. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/137 "2010-08-25T16:22:16Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. > > You’ve lived in this neighborhood since before your kids were born. You’ve made friends with the neighbours, and even though you have friends elsewhere, you’re going to see the ones down the block more than the ones on the other side of town ( **Leaffan** lives in a big city, IIRC). You’re the kind of neighborhood where someone has a bbq every weekend and invites everyone, and of course there’s the big garage sale. Your kids all mingle and play together, perhaps the guy a few doors down is a good carpenter and builds them a treehouse. > > Then your kid defies traditional gender roles for Halloween. Suddenly those suburban moms start saying their kids can’t hang with yours any more. The next bbq comes up and no one tells you, so if you ask to join up, they say they didn’t buy enough food. They let you participate in the garage sale, but you find everyone treats you awkwardly when you try to enter a discussion. > > It happens y’all, it happens. Very close actually. No one would stop inviting us though. And I doubt anyone would really care too much; maybe some awkward moments and some behind-the-back WTF? But I’d still be embarrassed by it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/138 "2010-08-25T16:26:13Z")
When I was five years old, I went as a very classic hansel-and-gretel witch for halloween, with the green facepaint and hat and voluminous black velvet dress. For the grr-argh-gender-roles types: I am currently the manliest man who ever did man among my group of friends, and I have the football trophies and beard to prove it. A freakin’ five year old in a dress doesn’t make him a transsexual or homosexual. If it did, I wouldn’t care either, but meh. For the “think-of-the-CHILDREN” types: I got way more ridicule two years later with my ninja “costume”, which was a little too obviously a set of ninja-themed pajamas. Even the older kids thought it was a pretty cool costume with a lot of neat detail, as I recall. For the “I’d be SO EMBARASSED” types: My parents, homeowners and proprietors of the only general store in a town of 250 (not to mention my mom being liturgy director and organist of our Catholic parish) didn’t seem to lose any of their pillars-of-the-church-and-community status by having my dress-wearing ass prance about in the halloween parade. So basically–I do not understand the objections raised in this thread, as my personal experience has shown that none of them apply even in relatively harsh (small town Appalachia, Catholic churchgoing family, in 1984) conditions. Postscript: Later in my “career”, I somehow managed a reputation in comedy theatre in my hometown as being the one teenage guy who was willing to take all the cross-dressing-for-laughs roles in older plays. To this day I am more comfortable in heels than my wife is–a fact that I only use to tease her at this point. ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/139 "2010-08-25T18:44:39Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > > [@History\_Geek](#): > > > > Nothing dictates all gay males have to adopt feminine characteristics, either. Why can’t a gay man be the family breadwinner, work his 8 hours in a factory, and expect dinner on the table when he gets home at five? There is just as much stereotyping done by the ultra-left as there is on the ultra-right. Both extremes are wrong. > > This is a bit of a left turn – did someone say that all gay men have to be feminine? Not in this thread. I was trying to illustrate a point about the idea of “forcing gender roles” working both ways, and how, like any stereotyping, it can be fallacious in specific cases. Children will grow up to be what they want to be/who they are. > [@Vihaga](#): > > > [@History\_Geek](#): > > > > But until the kid reaches a stage where that sort of thing matters, as a parent you have a responsibility to teach him how the world works _in general_. > > I’m curious about exactly what this teaching involves. Er… I suspect you’re baiting me a little here. In the context of this thread, it involves teaching your kid that men wear men’s clothes, women wear women’s clothes. * * * I don’t think there’s anything wrong with guiding a school-age kid toward gender roles that society deems “normal”. As members of a society, you have an obligation to follow certain conventions of that society when you are in the public sphere. Being a “fierce individual” and scorning all public opinion will draw certain consequences. Which is worse for your kid - you guiding him from Snow White to GI Joe or dozens of his peers and even other grown-ups teasing and laughing? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/140 "2010-08-25T19:09:06Z")
> [@History\_Geek](#): > > > [@matt\_mcl](#): > > > > This is a bit of a left turn – did someone say that all gay men have to be feminine? > > Not in this thread. I was trying to illustrate a point about the idea of “forcing gender roles” working both ways, and how, like any stereotyping, it can be fallacious in specific cases. The reason I ask is that I frequently hear _about_ people allegedly saying that gay men ought to be feminine, but I never hear anyone actually doing so. Quite the contrary, actually. As an effeminate gay man, I’m bothered by this, because it’s suggesting that I have some power or privilege that I don’t, and it’s suggesting that the devaluation is going both ways when in my experience it goes almost entirely one way – in favour of men (of any orientation) behaving in stereotypically masculine ways and against deviation from this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=8)