# Would you let your 4 year old son wear a Snow White dress for Halloween? I wouldn't. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243 "2010-08-24T03:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/161 "2010-08-26T02:55:45Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > 1. If my kid ends up blowing guys in a bathroom, it won’t have anything to do with how I raised him. Unless, of course, you concede that my parenting has the ability to affect behavior. If my parenting can lead to him doing that, then why can’t my parenting keep him out of Divas? Is it "He’ll end up in the bathroom/at Divas whether you like it or not, " or is it “Your parenting will make him blow guys in the bathroom/be a good husband”? Pick one, or be a hypocrite. > > 2. None of those are gender related? Seriously? Tell me, then, how are women different than men? I’ll let you pick anything you want. Give me something that’s commonplace, not cross-dressing. > > 3. Because you take it too far. Well, I don’t know about _you_, exactly, but certainly posters on this message board. They’d be happy if tomorrow, everyone’s behavior was independent of their sex. That’s obviously ridiculously damaging! My resistance stems from the fact that, if they had it their way, you wouldn’t be able to tell men from boys from girls from women. You’d have no idea how to behave in mixed company. You’d have no idea what jobs you’re expected to do and what jobs you can expect your mate to do. > > 4. But those skills _aren’t_ taught to everyone. And it’s not so much about skills like “change a flat”, which are easy to point out in a conversation, but more about social skills. The world _requires_ gender roles so that men know how to act when they’re together and women know how to act when they’re together, but more importantly, so a man and a women know how to act when _they’re_ together. Because like everything else in life, social interaction is all about sex - making and raising a new generation to replace the old one. And as a wise mentor once said “Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it reality? Yes. And you have to respect that.” 1. You can’t make your kid gay or straight. You can make your kid closeted, if he is going to be gay already. Read for comprehension. 2. Childbirth. Nursing. Physical strength at the high end (better in men). Physical endurance/pain tolerance at the high end (better in women). Basically, the things defined by biology, not societal conditioning. Having a dick doesn’t automatically give you the instinctive ability to change a flat tire. Nor do boobs equal cooking and baking prowess. 3. Why is this bad, again? Supposing my wife likes mowing the lawn and changing the oil, and I like taking care of the kid and doing dishes, what the hell is wrong with that? Hell, suppose a woman is living alone–should she hire out all the lawn work or do it herself? Suppose a man is living alone–should he eat out for every meal or learn to cook for himself? 4. In this charming modern age, I found that treating my wife like a person, a friend, and a joy to be around was more than enough to woo her into bed with me. No female-vs.-male specifics required–she belches, plays D&D and video games–and knits, and cooks amazingly, and rocks my socks off in bed. This is somehow WORSE than me having my selection of reserved, helpless, shrinking violets? To each their own, I suppose. I want to reiterate, I’m a fraternity guy who played football–I can deal with macho culture. I can also enjoy the hell out of a knitting group or Stitch-n-Bitch session–and I have had no problems either making male friends or female friends or finding dates despite treating pretty much everyone equally. Your son, however, had best have a good idea how to deal with strong independent women, or he’s gonna get a lot of abuse in college bars from the latest generation. Lots of feminism going around now, and resistance to gender roles–FAR more than when I was in college ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/162 "2010-08-26T04:36:45Z")
Hey, like I said, I’d like to see **Chessic Sense** say this to my cousin, the Iraqi vet. Something tells me it wouldn’t be pretty. (DEFINITELY not as pretty as that Snow White costume!) Now I can’t change a tire – I can’t drive, in fact. But I definitely know how to deal with drunken losers. (I’ve certainly done so in the past!) And I DO hope that **Chessic Sense** IS teaching his daughters these things, if only because you can’t always rely on a man – or just someone else in general to do these things for you. Hell, at one time boys wore dresses until they were about three or four. That was less than 100 years ago (up until at least the 1920s, I believe). Gender roles aren’t always so rigid – they’re fluid and they change over time. But in the end, what does any of this matter, when it comes to freaking _Halloween_? It’s called a “costume” for a reason. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/163 "2010-08-26T05:24:31Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Buttoning your bottom bottom of a suit jacket is effeminate now? It’s so hard to keep up. Sometimes I wonder how most guys stay manly enough. Do they keep the “Be like John Wayne” scene from La Cage aux Folles playing on a loop in the back of their mind or what? It’s not that it’s incorrect, although certainly people will say that while they laugh at your fashion faux pas. The reason the bottom button is left undone is because a quality jacket should cinch at the waist, which is generally smaller than the hips. If a suit jacket is tailored correctly the bottom button falls below the waist and buttoning it changes the line of the suit from a sexy taper into a lumpy cylinder. Similarly, when wearing a three button jacket, one should leave the top button undone as well in order for the lapel to sit most attractively at the waist. (It also balances the fact that you’ve left the bottom button undone.) I, having little patience with nonsense like this, buy only one button suit jackets which are unbuttoned when it makes sense to be unbuttoned and buttoned the rest of the time and to hell with everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/164 "2010-08-26T05:46:17Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > > [@History\_Geek](#): > > > > Not in this thread. I was trying to illustrate a point about the idea of “forcing gender roles” working both ways, and how, like any stereotyping, it can be fallacious in specific cases. > > The reason I ask is that I frequently hear _about_ people allegedly saying that gay men ought to be feminine, but I never hear anyone actually doing so. Quite the contrary, actually. As an effeminate gay man, I’m bothered by this, because it’s suggesting that I have some power or privilege that I don’t, and it’s suggesting that the devaluation is going both ways when in my experience it goes almost entirely one way – in favour of men (of any orientation) behaving in stereotypically masculine ways and against deviation from this. The stereotype might not be commonly expressed by anyone in actual words; I think it’s a subconscious image that has been created through media portrayals of gay men. Thus, when people talk about gender roles and trying to be sensitive to the potential of a kid being gay, they immediately think the kid needs to be treated as effete. You’re probably right about values skewing toward men acting masculine in general. A lot of the societal objection to homosexuality in men likely comes from the adoption of feminine roles and mannerisms by a male. It’s a breach of the unwritten social contract, and it’s taken a very long time for that behavior to gain even a little acceptance because it’s something that goes against the basic animal-thinking of our nature. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/165 "2010-08-26T06:28:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > > > Buttoning your bottom bottom of a suit jacket is effeminate now? It’s so hard to keep up. Sometimes I wonder how most guys stay manly enough. Do they keep the “Be like John Wayne” scene from La Cage aux Folles playing on a loop in the back of their mind or what? > > It’s not that it’s incorrect, although certainly people will say that while they laugh at your fashion faux pas. The reason the bottom button is left undone is because a quality jacket should cinch at the waist, which is generally smaller than the hips. If a suit jacket is tailored correctly the bottom button falls below the waist and buttoning it changes the line of the suit from a sexy taper into a lumpy cylinder. Similarly, when wearing a three button jacket, one should leave the top button undone as well in order for the lapel to sit most attractively at the waist. (It also balances the fact that you’ve left the bottom button undone.) I, having little patience with nonsense like this, buy only one button suit jackets which are unbuttoned when it makes sense to be unbuttoned and buttoned the rest of the time and to hell with everyone else. Underline mine. In Spain, a suit which does not keep its shape when all buttons are closed is considered incorrectly tailored. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/166 "2010-08-26T07:33:30Z")
There is so much ignorance in this thread, I don’t know where to start. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/167 "2010-08-26T07:34:41Z")
He’s only going to be wearing the dress for a couple hours, not every day. Lighten up and let the boy enjoy Halloween ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/168 "2010-08-26T08:31:22Z")
The rule for suit jackets is: sometimes (top button) always (middle button) and never (lower button). Where did I learn this? Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/169 "2010-08-26T11:57:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Having a dick doesn’t automatically give you the instinctive ability to change a flat tire. Instinctive, no, but if it had a good father figure, that prehensile puppy can change a tire, drink beer, drive a pick-up truck, and get a BJ all at the same time. At four years of age, a real man should be able to use his dick to dress himself (obviously not as Snow White, for that would cause his dick confusion and leave it flacid for the rest of man’s life). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/170 "2010-08-26T13:18:24Z")
> [@Pixiesnix](#): > > The rule for suit jackets is: sometimes (top button) always (middle button) and never (lower button). > > Where did I learn this? > > Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. 😉 **Kayaker’s** rule for suit jackets: Unless the bride is my daughter or the groom is my son: send a gift and skip the suit.😉 ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/171 "2010-08-26T13:29:18Z")
I once dressed up as Jack so me and a friend could go as Jack and Jill. For some reason, the fact that she had blond hair and I had black hair meant that she got to be Jill. I wore my brother’s school uniform. Remarkably, I’m unscathed by the whole ordeal. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/172 "2010-08-26T13:38:07Z")
I assume it’s the usual back and forth and already know which posters I’ll be agreeing with. The kid is 4. It’s Halloween. I have no problem letting him dress as Snow White. Were it my son, I would sew him the best Snow White dress you’ve ever seen. Yeah, I sew. I also like babies and cute animals. I also love boobies and can please a woman in ways possible only in four dimensional space. You got a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/173 "2010-08-26T15:09:17Z")
> [@History\_Geek](#): > > The stereotype might not be commonly expressed by anyone in actual words; I think it’s a subconscious image that has been created through media portrayals of gay men. Thus, when people talk about gender roles and trying to be sensitive to the potential of a kid being gay, they immediately think the kid needs to be treated as effete. You’re probably right about values skewing toward men acting masculine in general. A lot of the societal objection to homosexuality in men likely comes from the adoption of feminine roles and mannerisms by a male. It’s a breach of the unwritten social contract, and it’s taken a very long time for that behavior to gain even a little acceptance because it’s something that goes against the basic animal-thinking of our nature. You can see that believing “all/most gay men _are_ effeminate” and “gay men _should be_ effeminate” are very different stereotypes, though. So it’s not fair to act as though there is some sort of pressure brought to bear (by effeminate gay men, it’s usually constructed as) on gay men to be effeminate, when the truth is quite the opposite. Nor to suggest that “gay men are effeminate” and “men in general ought to be masculine” are equal and opposite stereotypes when their effect – to marginalize and deprecate effeminate men – is the same in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/174 "2010-08-26T15:33:38Z")
Effeminate men — or sissies or whatever term you want to use — are the last pariah group on the sexual spectrum. People say “Eww, I wouldn’t want my kid to become like THAT! Oh and don’t get me wrong, it’s not that I’m afraid he’ll grow up to be gay, although I’d rather he wasn’t… I support gay rights and gay marriage and don’t have a real problem wtih that. But not a nancy boy, not a pansy.” People aren’t rational about it. They recoil away with the weirdest damn attitudes. Like on the one hand they feel sorry for the little fairies as if no one would be like that if they had any choice in the matter, but then they get furiously and violently angry, like “You know what you’re doing is gross and disgusting and so you deserve the worst of what can be dished out to you, it’s your fault” ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/175 "2010-08-26T16:09:23Z")
My daughter’s 4th Halloween, she wore the same costume to school that she did that night- She was a vampire zombie mermaid pirate. She mixed a cheap pirate hat, hook and sword with the little mermaid dress and wig and had a zombie neck sewn line and fangs and blood dripping from her mouth. Her idea and choice, all of it. I have been searching for the pictures, but I don’t know which service they are on-[here it is!](http://www.flickr.com/photos/11426260@N07/1117765187/in/set-72157601445122355) (sans wig) I myself, as a male, at 3 was a cat-witch, again, at my choice. I grew up to be a fairly open-minded straight male. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/176 "2010-08-26T16:15:29Z")
**Gurujulp** , you better be careful. With that combination of [del]clothing[/del] costume influences, she might turn out to be GLBT all at once. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/177 "2010-08-26T16:17:20Z")
And what if she asks for a mermaid-plasty? ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/178 "2010-08-26T16:42:22Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > > [@History\_Geek](#): > > > > The stereotype might not be commonly expressed by anyone in actual words; I think it’s a subconscious image that has been created through media portrayals of gay men. Thus, when people talk about gender roles and trying to be sensitive to the potential of a kid being gay, they immediately think the kid needs to be treated as effete. You’re probably right about values skewing toward men acting masculine in general. A lot of the societal objection to homosexuality in men likely comes from the adoption of feminine roles and mannerisms by a male. It’s a breach of the unwritten social contract, and it’s taken a very long time for that behavior to gain even a little acceptance because it’s something that goes against the basic animal-thinking of our nature. > > You can see that believing “all/most gay men _are_ effeminate” and “gay men _should be_ effeminate” are very different stereotypes, though. So it’s not fair to act as though there is some sort of pressure brought to bear (by effeminate gay men, it’s usually constructed as) on gay men to be effeminate, when the truth is quite the opposite. Nor to suggest that “gay men are effeminate” and “men in general ought to be masculine” are equal and opposite stereotypes when their effect – to marginalize and deprecate effeminate men – is the same in both cases. I can see where you, as an effeminate gay man, have probably experienced a great deal of pressure to be more masculine, particularly from people who aren’t willing to accept your homosexuality. But have you gotten that pressure from people who simply accept your orientation? I suspect that people who are more “open-minded” about it are buying in to the stereotype of the effeminate gay male; you fit their mental image of what a gay man should be. I don’t think the “are” and “should be” statements are very different stereotypes. I think they’re factors of a single stereotype. Going by the posts in this thread alone (which is admittedly not a scientific sample), there seems to be a perception that a gay or “potentially gay” kid should be treated as or at least be expected to be effeminate. I haven’t met very many gay men, and certainly have never had a conversation with any about the way they were raised and the sorts of stereotypes and behaviors that influenced them growing up, or that influence them now as adults. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/179 "2010-08-26T16:47:49Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > I once dressed up as Jack so me and a friend could go as Jack and Jill. For some reason, the fact that she had blond hair and I had black hair meant that she got to be Jill. I wore my brother’s school uniform. > > Remarkably, I’m unscathed by the whole ordeal. But have your parents ever got over the embarrassment? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243/180 "2010-08-26T16:52:18Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Effeminate men — or sissies or whatever term you want to use — are the last pariah group on the sexual spectrum. Huh? I thought it was piss spewing dwarfs spinning from chandeliers above raves? I guess I’m behind the times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-let-your-4-year-old-son-wear-a-snow-white-dress-for-halloween-i-wouldnt/551243.md?page=10)