# Would you rather live in the ascendancy of a civilization or during its decline? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140 "2011-12-23T01:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/1 "2011-12-23T01:38:11Z")
_ **"Would you rather live in the ascendancy of a civilization or during its decline?"** _ –Arnold Poindexter, Lambda Lambda Lambda, Revenge of the Nerds, (1984) This question has always bothered me. What possible benefits could there be to living in a civilization in decline? Or was it just a sign that he was wasted on Booger’s Wonder-Joints? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/2 "2011-12-23T01:44:17Z")
How would I know if what I’m experiencing is the ascendancy of a civilization if my lifespan is only a few decades? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/3 "2011-12-23T01:45:49Z")
Presumably, in it’s decline a society still has the remnants of what it achieved: art, culture, technology, infrastructure etc. Things are slipping- upkeep, resources, social fabric etc, but the heights achieved still impact society. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/4 "2011-12-23T01:47:57Z")
How close to the apex and how fast are the decline and ascendancy? ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/5 "2011-12-23T01:57:15Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > How would I know if what I’m experiencing is the ascendancy of a civilization if my lifespan is only a few decades? You couldn’t. The question assumes a viewpoint from the future looking back, like we look at the Roman, Byzantine, or the Mayan civilizations. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/6 "2011-12-23T02:00:01Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > How close to the apex and how fast are the decline and ascendancy? I don’t believe that was specified. Are you suggesting that it would be better to live during a gentle decline than a rapid (presumably chaotic) ascension? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/7 "2011-12-23T02:06:44Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > I don’t believe that was specified. Are you suggesting that it would be better to live during a gentle decline than a rapid (presumably chaotic) ascension? I’m saying I’d like to live as close to the apex for as long as possible. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/8 "2011-12-23T02:09:46Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I’m saying I’d like to live as close to the apex for as long as possible. Obviously. But assuming that each alternative was equally close to the apex, and you must choose one, would you pick the ascendancy or the decline? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/9 "2011-12-23T02:17:20Z")
Then I don’t care either way. Why would I? ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/10 "2011-12-23T02:27:14Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Then I don’t care either way. Why would I? In one scenario things get a little better every day; in the other, things are continually getting worse. You don’t see a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/11 "2011-12-23T02:34:34Z")
In the former they started out worse. You just said that on average they’re equally good. Hell, if anything I’d take the one in decline because then the best days would align with my youth. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/12 "2011-12-23T02:40:32Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > In the former they started out worse. You just said that on average they’re equally good. Hell, if anything I’d take the one in decline because then the best days would align with my youth. But in an ascending civilization you would presumably have better and better medicine and health care as you got older instead of memories of things like artificial hips and cancer treatments. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/13 "2011-12-23T03:05:20Z")
A mini example. The early days of space exploration, the space race, the lunar landings, Skylab, Apollo-Soyuz, and the early days of the space shuttle. Things were exciting, anything was possible and things were just getting more amazing and better. The latter days of manned space exploration. This shit is hard, we can’t even do what we USED to be able do. What we are doing is a pale comparision and seems to have no point because at this rate we will barely doing anything at all and finally won’t be doing it at all period. The early days were inspirational. The latter days have almost been soul sucking. I’ll take the rise over the fall any day, even if technically the absolute “level” of the fall is higher than the “level” of the rise, assuming you kinda know where you are in relation to the peak. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/14 "2011-12-23T03:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > In the youth of a state arms do flourish; in the middle age of a state, learning; and then both of them together for a time; in the declining age of a state, mechanical arts and merchandise. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) Is “the middle age” an option? That, if so, otherwise early decline. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/15 "2011-12-23T03:47:00Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > But in an ascending civilization you would presumably have better and better medicine and health care as you got older instead of memories of things like artificial hips and cancer treatments. The entire healthcare system is going to collapse in the span of a couple decades? ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/16 "2011-12-23T03:50:57Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The entire healthcare system is going to collapse in the span of a couple decades? You think that’s unrealistic? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/17 "2011-12-23T04:05:54Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > You think that’s unrealistic? If you posit that the decline happens at the same rate as the climb? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/18 "2011-12-23T04:09:42Z")
Decline, obviously. If you buy the maunderings of an earlier generation of moralistic historians that linked political decline to moral decline\*, then obviously the best time to be alive is when everything is sinking into wretched wallow of hedonism and excess. Because who doesn’t love hedonism and excess? 😃 - Intellectually I’d recommend you NOT buy into that hypothesis. But, you know, _if you do_ ;). ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/19 "2011-12-23T04:20:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If you posit that the decline happens at the same rate as the climb? Yes. Seventy years ago [life expectancy](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html) (USA) was 63. Today it’s 78. Now imagine that same rate in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140/20 "2011-12-23T04:23:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Because who doesn’t love hedonism and excess? Some to participate, others to excoriate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-live-in-the-ascendancy-of-a-civilization-or-during-its-decline/607140.md?page=2)