# Would you rather spend an evening with Frank Sinatra or Harlan Ellison? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898 "2018-09-25T16:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/21 "2018-09-25T18:53:25Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I would be somewhat afraid to engage Ellison in conversation… Aw, go ahead and ask him why “Trooper” from his _The City on the Edge of Forever_ script proclaimed, “I fought at Verdun!” when the battle ended in December, 1916 and the United States did not enter WWI until 1918. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/22 "2018-09-25T18:54:59Z")
I think I’d like a night out with Sinatra and the Rat Pack. Sounds like fun. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/23 "2018-09-25T18:55:19Z")
Ellison, I could probably go the whole evening without mentioning Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/24 "2018-09-25T19:01:44Z")
I have read that Ellison could be quite charming, when he wanted to be, if he liked you. I think he would be nice to me, until the conversation turned to Art, or politics. (Granted, that would be about 10 minutes, tops.) Based on the _Esquire_ article that **Johnny Ecks** linked to, I think Sinatra would look down his nose at me from the moment I walked into the room. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/25 "2018-09-25T19:02:02Z")
Ellison. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/26 "2018-09-25T21:16:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Aw, go ahead and ask him why “Trooper” from his _The City on the Edge of Forever_ script proclaimed, “I fought at Verdun!” when the battle ended in December, 1916 and the United States did not enter WWI until 1918. Americans were over there prior to 1918. These guys were there but not fighting: [American Volunteer Motor Ambulance Corps - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Volunteer_Motor_Ambulance_Corps) I believe some Americans did fight with the British early in the war. Also In WW 2 there were even Americans who were German ancestry and fought with Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/27 "2018-09-25T21:26:34Z")
Sinatra, because I would want to tell him about the time that my toddler son listened to Sinatra singing on a radio station for a couple of hours in the car and said, “I love Mommy, Daddy, and _Frank Sinatra_.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/28 "2018-09-25T21:33:22Z")
Easy choice for me. I… well, “enjoy” is probably the wrong word, but I appreciate Ellison’s work. Sinatra’s, however, I absolutely detest. And Ellison and I at least come from similar enough subcultures that we’re likely to find something to discuss, while I have no clue what I’d have in common with Sinatra. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/29 "2018-09-25T23:29:27Z")
Sinatra was an asshole. I’ve read a lot about him. Writers either wind up saying he was a great entertainer who was also an asshole or an asshole who was also a great entertainer. I wouldn’t last ten minutes in his presence. Ellison was sometimes abrasive but he wasn’t always an asshole. No contest. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/30 "2018-09-26T00:29:23Z")
I’m pretty sure Sinatra would pick up the check. Ellison would complain about the food so much the staff would be spitting in our entrees. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/31 "2018-09-26T01:16:33Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think I’d like a night out with Sinatra and the Rat Pack. Sounds like fun. This. Spent an evening with Harlan. Less intresting than one might imagine. Obsessed with Bruce Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/32 "2018-09-26T01:43:42Z")
Sinatra in Vegas at the height of the Rat Pack era. I’m not sure if my liver would survive. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/33 "2018-09-26T02:15:56Z")
Sinatra would want to go to a classic red-sauce Italian-American restaurant. I’m always up for that. I’ll have a dry martini, some _vongole posillipo_, and what’s the veal special? I have no fucking idea what Harlan liked to eat, but I know he didn’t drink. So he’d be exactly as much fun at the end of the evening as he was at the beginning, which wouldn’t be very. ---
**Author:** ![BlueInfinity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BlueInfinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueInfinity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/34 "2018-09-26T02:56:49Z")
As a Trekkie it should be Ellison, but I’m _so much_ of a Trekkie that I’d be yelling at him about how he handled The City on the Edge of Forever and the aftermath thereof. Sinatra seems more of a chill guy. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/35 "2018-09-26T04:34:12Z")
“Off the record, Frank. What do you know about Jack Kennedy?” ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/36 "2018-09-26T04:42:14Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Ellison, so I could ask him who he was. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/37 "2018-09-26T05:09:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Sinatra. I’ve spent an evening with Harlan before. 😃 This; I’m sure Frank could be more fun. ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/38 "2018-09-26T05:47:54Z")
Ellison. Both seem like they were assholes, but Ellison seems more like my type of asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/39 "2018-09-26T05:58:08Z")
Given that we have at least one obvious piece of photographic/documented evidence of Ellison sexually assaulting a woman\*, I’d go with Sinatra despite having little to no interest in him. Note that while I suspect Sinatra of similar or worse behavior-And I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to hear if he did, at least it was in the 50s and 60s and presumably Sinatra didn’t know better compared to Ellison who certainly did and did it just to abuse a woman in public \*Connie Willis—And not in the ancient forgot and passed. It was the 2013 Hugel words where Ellison thought it would be cute to “honka-honka” Willis’s breasts While she was presenting him with an award. He then said that it was just a joke, and when that didn’t go over he essentially said “the bitch was asking for it” by infantilzing him. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/40 "2018-09-26T07:18:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I like both of their works. But from everything I’ve heard, both were pretty bad people to be around. > > I guess if I had to spend an evening with one of them, I’d pick Sinatra. He at least seemed to know how to enjoy himself even if he preferred to surround himself with sycophants. With Ellison, I’d probably end up listening to him complain for a couple of hours. This is exactly my reasoning. Frank there’d be a party, some good music. Harlan, there’d probably just be…Harlan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=3)