# Would you rather spend an evening with Frank Sinatra or Harlan Ellison? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898 "2018-09-25T16:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/41 "2018-09-26T07:59:20Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Sinatra would want to go to a classic red-sauce Italian-American restaurant. I’m always up for that. That’s what I thought straight off. “I bet Frank knows a good italian restaurant” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/42 "2018-09-26T13:47:27Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Americans were over there prior to 1918. > > These guys were there but not fighting: > > [American Volunteer Motor Ambulance Corps - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Volunteer_Motor_Ambulance_Corps) > > I believe some Americans did fight with the British early in the war. > > Also In WW 2 there were even Americans who were German ancestry and fought with Germany. He does say “fought”. If I can find my copy of the scripts I’ll see if he is wearing a uniform. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/43 "2018-09-26T14:10:29Z")
The idea of spending time with Ellison, based on how he acts, is pretty bad to me. But Sinatra would likely be worse. And maybe if I commiserate about how Roddenberry lied about the Guardian of Forever episode, I can get on his good side long enough for a pleasant evening. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/44 "2018-09-26T14:24:56Z")
Sinatra was a famously charming guy with lots of friends. If he’s willing to spend an evening with _me_, that means he thinks I’m all right, so if I keep my wits and don’t say anything stupid, I’ll probably have a good time. Ellison, on the other hand, was a young crank who grew into an old crank. I’ll stick with Frank. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/45 "2018-09-26T14:34:25Z")
If I let Ellison bitch about Roddenberry throughout the meal, he might pick up the tab. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/46 "2018-09-26T15:11:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Easy choice for me. I… well, “enjoy” is probably the wrong word, but I appreciate Ellison’s work. Sinatra’s, however, I absolutely detest. And Ellison and I at least come from similar enough subcultures that we’re likely to find something to discuss, while I have no clue what I’d have in common with Sinatra. Detest? Really? He had a vast body of work encompassing live and recorded musical performances, starring roles in movie comedies and dramas, and countless television appearances. Much of his film and musical work is critically well regarded. What is it, if you are able to express it, that you “detest” about his work? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/47 "2018-09-26T15:17:24Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Detest? Really? He had a vast body of work encompassing live and recorded musical performances, starring roles in movie comedies and dramas, and countless television appearances. Much of his film and musical work is critically well regarded. What is it, if you are able to express it, that you “detest” about his work? Forgot to include that in the Golden Age of Radio, Sinatra also performed in many, many comedic and dramatic roles there, along with musical performances. His body of work is huge. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/48 "2018-09-26T15:54:21Z")
On a more… base level, a night out with Frank will have better food, better drinks and hotter women. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/49 "2018-09-26T17:27:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Given that we have at least one obvious piece of photographic/documented evidence of Ellison sexually assaulting a woman\*, I’d go with Sinatra despite having little to no interest in him. Note that while I suspect Sinatra of similar or worse behavior-And I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to hear if he did, at least it was in the 50s and 60s and presumably Sinatra didn’t know better compared to Ellison who certainly did and did it just to abuse a woman in public > > \*Connie Willis—And not in the ancient forgot and passed. It was the 2013 Hugel words where Ellison thought it would be cute to “honka-honka” Willis’s breasts While she was presenting him with an award. He then said that it was just a joke, and when that didn’t go over he essentially said “the bitch was asking for it” by infantilzing him. Perhaps Ellison was just following [the lead](https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/) of some of his elders in the science fiction community. That community has its share of sexual predators and perverts. Breen, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Asimov, etc. Of course, by 2013 he should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/50 "2018-09-26T18:05:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Perhaps Ellison was just following [the lead](https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/) of some of his elders in the science fiction community. That community has its share of sexual predators and perverts. Breen, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Asimov, etc. Of course, by 2013 he should have known better. If you want to compare Sinatra to Ellison, how do [these exploits](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/frank-sinatra-and-his-violent-temper/) stack up against Ellison’s? edited to add: By the way, I believe the original offer was a night with Sinatra vs. a night with Ellison, not a “night with Sinatra and the Ratpack and showgirls at a ritzy nightclub with Sinatra treating you like another member of The Pack vs. a pissed off Ellison bitching about everthing”. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/51 "2018-09-26T18:39:10Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Perhaps Ellison was just following [the lead](https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/) of some of his elders in the science fiction community. That community has its share of sexual predators and perverts. Breen, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Asimov, etc. Of course, by 2013 he should have known better. Here’s the thing, let’s take Breen and Bradley out of it as they were obviously far worse than any of the other players; actually grooming and raping children. While I don’t approve of Asimov‘s and Sinatra’s (presumable) behavior back in the 60s, it was considered, at least by men, a minor flirtation at the time. It’s not right that it was, but it was seen as no big deal. Ellison, on the other hand sexually assaulted a woman in a much more demeaning and public way a mere four years ago. And his defenses for his behavior became more and more disgusting. I have no way to prove this, but I suspect Asimov would have simply apologized. Regardless of those other authors though, in an Ellison versus Sinatra dinner, I suspect Frankie’s behavior toward women – and everyone else actually, would be far more civil. And I’d rather hear stories of the rat pack then Ellison fellating himself and throwing tantrums to get attention. He had a half dozen? A dozen maybe? good stories in him from about ‘65 to ‘75 and coasted for most of 50 years outside of that; whereas Sinatra literally changed the shape of music in the same way the Beatles did. The Beatles were to Elvis what Sinatra was to Crosby. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/52 "2018-09-26T19:45:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Aw, go ahead and ask him why “Trooper” from his _The City on the Edge of Forever_ script proclaimed, “I fought at Verdun!” when the battle ended in December, 1916 and the United States did not enter WWI until 1918. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Americans were over there prior to 1918. > > These guys were there but not fighting: > > [American Volunteer Motor Ambulance Corps - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Volunteer_Motor_Ambulance_Corps) > > I believe some Americans did fight with the British early in the war. > > Also In WW 2 there were even Americans who were German ancestry and fought with Germany. True. So, make it “Where did the Harlequin get the jelly beans?” instead… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/53 "2018-09-26T20:54:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you want to compare Sinatra to Ellison, how do [these exploits](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/frank-sinatra-and-his-violent-temper/) stack up against Ellison’s? > > edited to add: By the way, I believe the original offer was a night with Sinatra vs. a night with Ellison, not a “night with Sinatra and the Ratpack and showgirls at a ritzy nightclub with Sinatra treating you like another member of The Pack vs. a pissed off Ellison bitching about everthing”. You’re welcome to start another thread on Sinatra and Ellison or to not participate in this one since it seems to be upsetting to you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/54 "2018-09-26T20:56:39Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You’re welcome to start another thread on Sinatra and Ellison or to not participate in this one since it seems to be upsetting to you. I’m sorry-Did my difference of opinion upset you? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/55 "2018-09-26T21:51:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry-Did my difference of opinion upset you? No. Now did you have anything of value to add or are you just here to bitch and play “what about?” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/56 "2018-09-26T23:01:47Z")
Sinatra’s violent temper (and connections to even more violent people) are precisely why I was saying that Sinatra would be worse. I’ll take cranky over guy who may cause me bodily harm any day. And, yes, I do think they both likely did some bad stuff with women, so that’s a wash. I’m not picking “who is actually a decent guy” but “who is the lesser of two evils and the least dangerous to me?” ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/57 "2018-09-26T23:13:28Z")
I have no mouth and I must croon. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/58 "2018-09-26T23:43:30Z")
I won’t claim it’s fair, but yes, I detest Sinatra’s work. Back when I was working a food service job in college, there was a local radio station that played nothing but Sinatra, all day, and the manager insisted on keeping the radio fixed on that station. Very few works can handle that level of overexposure, and to fill that much airtime, you have to dredge the bottom of the barrel (have you ever heard Sinatra’s rendition of “Mrs. Robinson”? Ugh!). After that, it’s really no surprise that I would grow to hate Sinatra. I’d probably have a similar opinion of Ellison’s writing, if I were forced to consume it to the same degree, but thankfully, I haven’t been. Oh, and, [Moderating] This thread is inherently about a comparison between two people, so “whataboutism” isn’t a valid accusation. And sexual impropriety is certainly a valid reason to choose not to spend time with a person, so it’s within bounds to compare the sexual improprieties of the two men and to decide which is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/59 "2018-09-27T00:25:01Z")
Ok on the Sinatra overexposure. The moderating is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/60 "2018-09-27T02:32:03Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > While I don’t approve of Asimov‘s and Sinatra’s (presumable) behavior back in the 60s, it was considered, at least by men, a minor flirtation at the time. It’s not right that it was, but it was seen as no big deal. Ellison, on the other hand sexually assaulted a woman in a much more demeaning and public way a mere four years ago. And his defenses for his behavior became more and more disgusting. I have no way to prove this, but I suspect Asimov would have simply apologized. Just for the record, the incident between Ellison and Willis took place in 2006, twelve years ago, not four. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=4)