# Would you rather spend an evening with Frank Sinatra or Harlan Ellison? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898 "2018-09-25T16:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/61 "2018-09-27T04:17:50Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Ellison, so I could ask him who he was. Same. And I know who Ellison was - I also know how much that question would get under his skin. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/62 "2018-09-27T04:22:48Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > **Would you rather spend an evening with Frank Sinatra or Harlan Ellison?** Not really. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/63 "2018-09-27T06:21:43Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I’m not very familiar with Ellison. I just read his Wikipedia page, and it seems he was a fascinating person, and probably someone I’d have liked to know. Read his wikiquote entry. Watch the many “Harlan Ellison’s Watching” video commentaries on YouTube. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He does say “fought”. If I can find my copy of the scripts I’ll see if he is wearing a uniform. It’s on [hoopladigital.com](http://hoopladigital.com), which you might be able to access through your library, but I just checked for you. Yes, I concur, he does say “fought”. His clothing is not specified. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/64 "2018-09-27T13:46:43Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > …It’s on [hoopladigital.com](http://hoopladigital.com), which you might be able to access through your library, but I just checked for you. Yes, I concur, he does say “fought”. His clothing is not specified. Thanks! It is not worth being killed by the shade of Harlan Ellison. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/65 "2018-09-27T13:52:10Z")
Even if one’s nation wasn’t officially involved in a war, every war has had a handful of international volunteers who have gone “over there” just to fight. Heck, the French even have an official unit for such folks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/66 "2018-09-27T13:56:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if one’s nation wasn’t officially involved in a war, every war has had a handful of international volunteers who have gone “over there” just to fight. Heck, the French even have an official unit for such folks. Yes, Eddie Rickenbacker did that. I just delight in finding HE in possible error. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/67 "2018-09-27T14:35:46Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, make it “Where did the Harlequin get the jelly beans?” instead… 😃 No, just casually ask “So, when is the Last Dangerous Visions being published?” ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/68 "2018-09-27T18:24:50Z")
**Without reading other answers** I can’t say that I’d feel particularly safe with either of them. But I have friends who would love a chat with Ellison. So I’d pick him and then spend the evening in the kitchen,cooking. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/69 "2018-09-27T18:39:13Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > **Without reading other answers** > I can’t say that I’d feel particularly safe with either of them. But I have friends who would love a chat with Ellison. So I’d pick him and then spend the evening in the kitchen,cooking. I have no mouth, and I must eat. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/70 "2018-09-27T18:47:51Z")
OK. Having read the rest I don’t want to change my answer. I do agree with BigT’s point about Sinatra’s connections though. Assuming they were both still naturally living, and further assuming a forced choice to spend an evening at a table alone with one of them, I’d still pick Ellison. He’s the more likely of the two to make it an unpleasant evening. He’s also the least likely of the two to make it a pleasant evening. But I feel that with Harlan the evening will end that night, and whatever unpleasantness ensues will be over at Dawn. Whereas Frank, if he ever did get annoyed, might appear to let it go in the moment. But you’d never really know if today was the day that he’d remember, and get pissed off all over again, and just send someone over to hurt you. I grew up with toxic males, and I know how to handle them. It’s tempting to roll the dice for the win - an amazing evening with charming Frank. But you never know who you’re going to get. With men like these you have to play to _ **not lose** _. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/71 "2018-09-27T19:01:13Z")
There’s been lots of talk in this thread about Sinatra sending people over to hurt you, or ending up buried somewhere in the desert, and other mobby sounding stuff. Is there any believable evidence that Sinatra had anybody killed? That he sent thugs to beat anybody? He was known to have thrown punches, himself, but I’m interested to hear about all this mafia don type activity that he apparently engaged in. Since we have The Word that we can compare the two men, what I have learned of Ellison doesn’t point to him being a pacifist. I remember reading fawning tales of his judo prowess and off him kicking asses with same. Was he always the pure hero in these incidents, or was it just male ego clashing with male ego? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/72 "2018-09-27T19:39:55Z")
Good questions, Scumpup. I thought Ellison was just a vocal bully. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/73 "2018-09-27T19:57:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Good questions, Scumpup. I thought Ellison was just a vocal bully. Just a thought: If one’s purpose in having a meal with someone is just to piss them off, then one shouldn’t be surprised if said meal goes south. While I have seen more than one suggestion that the thing to do when dining with Harlan is to bring up sore subjects, I’m not seeing any suggestions from those who deign to dine with Frank that it would be fun to bring up things that you suspect would get you literally tossed out the room. I said that I would rather have a meal with Mr. Ellison because of past experiences I have had with him in which we both behaved like gentlemen, and he offered to pay for my meal both times it happened. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/74 "2018-09-27T22:08:55Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > There’s been lots of talk in this thread about Sinatra sending people over to hurt you, or ending up buried somewhere in the desert, and other mobby sounding stuff. Is there any believable evidence that Sinatra had anybody killed? That he sent thugs to beat anybody? He was known to have thrown punches, himself, but I’m interested to hear about all this mafia don type activity that he apparently engaged in. Since we have The Word that we can compare the two men, what I have learned of Ellison doesn’t point to him being a pacifist. I remember reading fawning tales of his judo prowess and off him kicking asses with same. Was he always the pure hero in these incidents, or was it just male ego clashing with male ego? I just assume anyone with mob connections has done stuff I don’t know about. And I just don’t want to make anyone with those connections angry. Plus you didn’t say they were in their prime, so I was picturing them being fairly old, and not too much of a threat at hand to hand violence. And I actually think I know enough about Ellison that we could get along, agreeing with stuff where I do think he was mistreated. I just recently learned of that book where he has all the drafts to the script of that Star Trek episode, and he just seems to very much want people to believe him about Roddenberry, so I thought it would help us get along if I showed I did. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/75 "2018-09-28T01:46:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > …I just recently learned of that book where he has all the drafts to the script of that Star Trek episode, and he just seems to very much want people to believe him about Roddenberry, so I thought it would help us get along if I showed I did. I’ve read his book, and while his scripts were very, very good, they were not as good as the filmed script, \*The City on the Edge of Forever. \* ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/76 "2018-09-28T01:51:27Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > > [@Scumpup](#): > > > > Would you rather spend an evening with Frank Sinatra or Harlan Ellison? > > Not really. Threadwinner. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/77 "2018-09-28T01:55:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Whereas Frank, if he ever did get annoyed, might appear to let it go in the moment. But you’d never really know if today was the day that he’d remember, and get pissed off all over again, and just send someone over to hurt you. > > I grew up with toxic males, and I know how to handle them. It’s tempting to roll the dice for the win - an amazing evening with charming Frank. But you never know who you’re going to get. With men like these you have to play to not lose. This is a ridiculously unfounded fear; what could you possibly envision yourself saying to Sinatra that would cause him to invoke mob connections and hurt you? ---
**Author:** ![TRC4941](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trc4941/32/6792_2.png) [@TRC4941](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TRC4941)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/78 "2018-09-28T15:23:40Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I would be somewhat afraid to engage Ellison in conversation, so I’m gonna have to go with Sinatra. I imagine it would probably be a much more relaxed and congenial experience. Agree! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/79 "2018-09-28T16:22:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just a thought: If one’s purpose in having a meal with someone is just to piss them off, then one shouldn’t be surprised if said meal goes south. While I have seen more than one suggestion that the thing to do when dining with Harlan is to bring up sore subjects, I’m not seeing any suggestions from those who deign to dine with Frank that it would be fun to bring up things that you suspect would get you literally tossed out the room. I said that I would rather have a meal with Mr. Ellison because of past experiences I have had with him in which we both behaved like gentlemen, and he offered to pay for my meal both times it happened. You’re free to bring those things up, sparky, if you feel they would improve the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898/80 "2018-09-28T16:35:05Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You’re free to bring those things up, sparky, if you feel they would improve the discussion. Thank you ever so much for your condescending permission, but I have no need to repeat myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-rather-spend-an-evening-with-frank-sinatra-or-harlan-ellison/821898.md?page=5)