# Would you say that STAR WARS droids are persons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 18, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641 "2012-07-18T17:40:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/21 "2012-07-18T23:46:38Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > You can’t put people back together when they get blasted to bits in the back rooms of Cloud City, so I’m going to go with close, but no cigar. Protein chauvinist! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/22 "2012-07-18T23:48:38Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > You can’t put people back together when they get blasted to bits in the back rooms of Cloud City, so I’m going to go with close, but no cigar. The Skywalker family would disagree with you on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/23 "2012-07-18T23:58:16Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Well, I have to admit, I’m not big enough of a SW fan to be familiar enough with the universe to make a truly well-informed answer—for all I know, _most_ droids are supposed to be [mindless automata](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4JBFPFDEUo), but it’s just that the majority of the ones we encounter _in-story_ seem to be sentient/sapient. > > I also don’t know how much the, for lack of a better word, “supernatural” aspect factors into this—in the SW universe, The Force demonstrably exists, is said to surround “all living things,” and Force “ghosts” exist, implying the existence of something akin to a “soul.” But what does that mean for droids? If a droid can’t access the Force, does that mean he has no “soul,” or is it more akin to just a “person” with an unusual medical condition? > > And how much does a “soul” even _matter_ in this universe—in [some fictional universes](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KNzoTA3ZtO4J:tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurSoulsAreDifferent+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us), a being without a soul is just a drooling zombie. But in others, a being lacking a soul is just as conscious, intelligent, and self-aware as one with a soul, the main difference being that their consciousness just goes _poof!_ and ceases to exist after death. Which one applies to SW—does anyone even _know_, in-story? > > So either the Star Wars universe raises unsettling questions about the nature and status of life and sentience; or it’s complicit to the core in the creation and exploitation of a doomed slave-race over thousands of years, in numbers I can’t even begin to fathom. Possibly _both_. > > It’s another reason I always preferred Star Trek—at least the only mindless, soulless heaps-in-the-shape-of-man I had to worry about were the writers and producers. 😃 I don’t know, the droids clearly aren’t **severed** from the force, despite not being able to use it – this is clearly illustrated by being able to use the force on them. So they might have force-souls. Granted, this property applies to your average rock as well. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/24 "2012-07-19T00:05:44Z")
R2-D2 and C3PO are definitely sentient. I guess it’s the emotions that make me think so - they seem to feel joy and fear, which makes them more than machines. I guess you could argue that they’re programmed to act that way, but I choose to ignore that argument. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/25 "2012-07-19T00:18:26Z")
No option to choose. They could have been sentient, but they might simply be designed to appear that way, yet not to the extent that people would consider them sentient. Certainly robots of that level of sophistication would raise the question though. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/26 "2012-07-19T00:23:12Z")
One of the source books or other Star Wars reference books I have read suggested that it was by going years without a memory wipe that allows a droid to develop a personality. I think given that is true, treating droids as disposable appliances would be morally wrong. It would the equivalent of, let’s say we knew that if a horse survives to it’s 20th birthday it would suddenly develop sentience and we thus made it a policy to kill all 19 year old horses. Just knowing it has the potential means you have to treat them differently. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/27 "2012-07-19T00:23:38Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > I also don’t know how much the, for lack of a better word, “supernatural” aspect factors into this—in the SW universe, The Force demonstrably exists, is said to surround “all living things,” and Force “ghosts” exist, implying the existence of something akin to a “soul.” But what does that mean for droids? If a droid can’t access the Force, does that mean he has no “soul,” or is it more akin to just a “person” with an unusual medical condition? Here I am a massive SW fan, and that has never occurred to me before. :eek: I’ve always been vaguely troubled by the fact that from observed behavior of a lot of Droids in the series, there seemed to be massive slave trade. (before Ep1 came along) But it makes sense that with Jedi and the Force being around, something ie droids would be considered to not have a ‘soul’ and therefore not be a ‘person’. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/28 "2012-07-19T00:33:37Z")
I have a hard time accepting that a little kid created life out of basically trash and spare parts. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/29 "2012-07-19T01:01:14Z")
By the standards of [The Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture) (my personal go-to advanced spacefaring civilization), C-3PO and R2D2 would probably be considered sentient and therefore citizens, and that’s good enough for me. Of course, they are almost alughably primitive compared to the average Culture drone; in that universe both their functions would be combined in a unit less than half Artoo’s size, with room to spare for a handful of knife missles, and with the ability to levitate rather than walk or roll everywhere. Oh well, it was long ago and far away, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/30 "2012-07-19T01:02:25Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Here I am a massive SW fan, and that has never occurred to me before. :eek: > > I’ve always been vaguely troubled by the fact that from observed behavior of a lot of Droids in the series, there seemed to be massive slave trade. (before Ep1 came along) But it makes sense that with Jedi and the Force being around, something ie droids would be considered to not have a ‘soul’ and therefore not be a ‘person’. As much as I hate to bring it up, it IS cannon. Droids, by their nature can’t have midichlorians. As I explained above they aren’t SEVERED from the force, they just can’t use it. It’s not like all non-Force Sensitives don’t have souls. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/31 "2012-07-19T01:04:32Z")
It was pretty hard not to click the “you said sentient instead of sapient…” box! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/32 "2012-07-19T01:10:53Z")
Oh, er, my vote, thererfore, was “A sizable minority of droids are sentient beings.” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/33 "2012-07-19T01:25:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I have a hard time accepting that a little kid created life out of basically trash and spare parts. Eh, you tinker with a car or two and suddenly you find yourself on the brink of a philosophical paradox rivaling the greatest cognitive science and artificial intelligence strides made by the entire human race up until that point. Happened **all the time** to the auto shop kids at my high school. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/34 "2012-07-19T01:31:10Z")
“A sizable minority of droids are sentient beings,” I voted. A lot that we see in the movies just seem to be mobile devices or tools, but some have personalities and aspirations. I suspect Imperial law holds them all to be nonsentient property; dunno if the New Republic is more enlightened on that point. Asimov wrote in _The Bicentennial Man_, “Freedom ought not to be denied to any being intelligent and self-aware enough to ask for it.” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/35 "2012-07-19T01:43:04Z")
Clearly, Threepio and Artoo are sentient (sapient, whatever). There really isn’t enough information to choose clearly among “Both Threepio & Artoo are sentient, but they’re probably unique or nearly so / A sizable minority of droids are sentient beings / Maybe half of all droids are sentient beings / All or virtually all droids are sentient”–but, I went with “All or virtually all droids are sentient” for a few reasons. There’s that (frankly weird) scene in \*Return of the Jedi \*where one droid is _torturing_ another one, which to me strongly implies that droid sentience is basically pretty normal (and that droid sadism and perversion are at least possible if not common). Add in the reaction of the Mos Eisley cantina bartender in _Star Wars_. To me, it doesn’t come off as “Sorry, you’ll have to leave your bicycles outside” or “Please silence your cellphone, sir”; his attitude was more like someone refusing to allowed “colored people” in his bar (“We don’t serve their kind here”). In other words, droids are “people”–just _inferior_ people against whom he is prejudiced. I can’t really drag in the “Expanded Universe” because I’m unfamiliar with most of it; in Brian Daley’s “Han Solo Adventures” (which were very early examples of the EU), the droids Bollux and Blue Max are clearly sentient. Really, the treatment of droids is one of the great unacknowledged injustices of the whole Star Wars Universe. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/36 "2012-07-19T02:23:28Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > One of the source books or other Star Wars reference books I have read suggested that it was by going years without a memory wipe that allows a droid to develop a personality. I From the various star wars RPG books (which I believe are considered canon), this is what I’ve gleaned: First, the droid has to have a “heuristic processor.” This is what allows it to learn from its own experiences. Droids who don’t have heuristic processors cannot become sentient. Second, as has been mentioned, the droid has to go a long time without a memory wipe. Memory wipes reset the droid to factory settings, so a lot of droid owners prefer not to do it (either because they don’t want the droid to lose the benefit of its own experiences, or because they enjoy the pseudo personalities that develop). Finally, the droid has to experience a “program-breaking event” of some kind. This can be deliberate (a programmer actually attempting to make the droid sentient) or the result of a malfunction. At that point the droid is a person. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/37 "2012-07-19T02:46:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > From the various star wars RPG books (which I believe are considered canon) Canonicity in Star Wars is weird, rather than something being canon or not, things have “levels” of canon. At the top are the movies, if anything contradicts the movies it is wrong, no matter how many books/trading cards/games/action figures say it. Technically this level of canon also involves anything Lucas says at a press conference, or in any directly supervised works by him like the radio dramas or novelizations. Then there’s TV canon, which is basically entirely made up of the two Clone Wars cartoons, that trumps everything not mentioned yet. Then there’s a bunch of crap with EU canon where depending on the quality, popularity, licensing, etc it’s more or less canon than other works in the EU. Then there’s the stuff that’s obviously not canon and not meant to be canon like the Lego games, “What if Han Solo landed on earth and met Indiana Jones” stories, [Star Wars Kinect Galactic Dance Off](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZFhEgIqSu8), etc. The RPG is in the third category, but I’m not sure exactly what tier in the third category. So it may or may not be canon. JOY! ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/38 "2012-07-19T03:27:21Z")
The Clone Wars features slavery on a massive legal scale, even worse in that the clones aren’t used for labor but as cannon fodder. They are living breathing military hardware… Even aside from that outside the republic slavery is not only legal but organized enough that there are markets, of actual no debate sentients. This is something I have always liked about the SW universe, a realistic amount of cognitive dissonance among the characters. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/39 "2012-07-19T03:35:46Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Add in the reaction of the Mos Eisley cantina bartender in _Star Wars_. To me, it doesn’t come off as “Sorry, you’ll have to leave your bicycles outside” or “Please silence your cellphone, sir”; his attitude was more like someone refusing to allowed “colored people” in his bar (“We don’t serve their kind here”). In other words, droids are “people”–just _inferior_ people against whom he is prejudiced. . Twenty years before that scene there was a galaxy wide war that killed I think a trillion casualties? And one of the combatants was a droid army, I imagine a LOT of people hate droids in the time of the original trilogy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641/40 "2012-07-19T05:14:05Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Twenty years before that scene there was a galaxy wide war that killed I think a trillion casualties? And one of the combatants was a droid army, I imagine a LOT of people hate droids in the time of the original trilogy. Doesn’t make it not bigotry. Those particular droids didn’t do anything. Yeah, I think they are sentient. It’s rare for robots in fiction not to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-say-that-star-wars-droids-are-persons/628641.md?page=3)