What harm comes as the result of acknowledging that things don’t always turn out the way we hope they do?
If you’re not prepared to weather any of those situations, you have absolutely zero business getting married. It’s right there in the traditional vows, ffs–for richer or poorer, in sickness and health, for better or worse. I mean, really. No wonder the fucking divorce rate is so high.
I married a medical resident a couple years from making 6 figures, and if he’d suggested a pre-nup I would have injured myself laughing. Neither of us had any assets to protect or kids to provide for–the only reason to want one would be to limit his liability if he decided to trade me in for a younger hotter model somewhere down the road. I mean, c’mon–I uproot myself multiple times as you have to move around for work, ride it out through the years when you’re working 80-hour weeks, spend years having holiday dinners, sex, home improvement projects, and naps interrupted by your pager going off, and then you’re going to not only waltz out the door and break my heart, but you think you’re getting most of the money too? :dubious: Yeah, fuck that noise.
That’s what the people saying prenups are evil are demanding. That their loves offer to do things that harm themselves either now or in the future to prove their love.
I wouldn’t be offended if I was asked to sign one. Of course, it depends on how the subject was broached. If I got the idea that my hypothetical fiance was more concerned about protecting himself from my money-grubbin fingers than simplifying a financial separation in the unfortunate event that we break up, I’d be bugged.
I could even see myself offering to sign a pre-nup if my beloved had more assets than I did. The gesture would let him know that I could care less about his damned money. That said, if he declined to go through with it, I’d take that as loving gesture on his part and it would fill me with squee. But if he didn’t, I wouldn’t hold it against him.
If I was the one who had substantially more assets, I probably wouldn’t ask for a pre-nup.
I can say from experience that no matter how much two people love each other, want to be with each other forever, and constantly work toward that goal, it is still possible for them to discover things about themselves (either because they didn’t realize them soon enough, or because one or both have changed in fundamental ways over time) where it no longer makes sense for them to remain married. While I know there are people on this board and in this thread who disagree, I don’t think it makes any sense whatsoever to stay married to someone if one or both parties come to realize that the marriage is a mistake.
It is with that line of thinking that I have zero objection to signing a prenup or being asked to sign one. I can say that my girlfriend and I have discussed this on multiple occasions, and we’re both in favor of the idea. People can have a way of turning very bitter and petty during divorces, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having an agreement in place that protects BOTH parties in a way designed when the two were acting as partners. And it can save both parties a lot of money, which can ultimately benefit them and any dependents that might be impacted by the split.
I pay for medical insurance, but that in no way changes my commitment to being healthy. I’m just aware that sometimes, things happen unexpectedly, and I’d prefer to be prepared to deal with that situation more easily if something goes wrong. The same goes for automobile insurance (or rather, it would if I weren’t already legally required to have it). My potential future marriage is no different for me. I was very fortunate in my first marriage. The unthinkable became reality, but since neither of us was out for blood, we’ve been able to agree on everything and split our assets without controversy. I hope I never go through another divorce in my life. But I’m can face the idea that it CAN happen, and if it does, I’d like it to be as smooth and inexpensive as possible.
I would expect a prenup if either of us had significant property prior to marriage, or had dependents. I think I’d go so far as to suggest it even if I was the unencumbered partner.
I didn’t for either of my marriages, but I think they are a wonderful idea. And I’m not too concerned about who gets what if the relationship ends - although communicating those expectations isn’t a bad thing - but that as part of a pre-nup, current assets AND liabilities are spelled out. I’ve seen too many people marry to discover “wow! that much debt!” after the fact. Pre-nups can not only say “well, I’m not letting you have half that six figure salary” - they can also say “I’m not going to take on your six figure debt.” If you are going to be disillusioned that your partner is selfish, in debt, bad with money, or isn’t about to share the huge inheritance he expects from grandma with you if you divorce him right after she dies - its better to do that before you say “I do.”
Wrong, marriage traditionally means forever. You have just said, I don’t intend to stick out this marriage for better or worse. I just intend to stick it out for as long as I want to.
Now that’s the traditional view. I’ve known too many people that have actually said to me, “So what if it doesn’t work out, I’ll just get a divorce.”
Why bother at all if that’s your attitude? Just live together.
The kids are not going to be effected by it anyway.
I guess the quick answer is marriage USED to mean forever, but not now.
Again I say, if marriage doesn’t mean forever to you, why bother at all?
A prenup says “I don’t trust you to do the right thing and not take advantage of me.”
There’s no law that says you HAVE to take anything from your ex-spouse. If you think you’re ex-spouse is only out to get something from you or would try to do it later on, than again I say, why bother?
Marriage says two become one. What the OP is saying is we don’t want to be one in union. We want our assets and debts to be sepearte.
I don’t trust anyone who hates me to do the right thing and not take advantage of me. And guess what? Lots of marriages end with someone hating someone else. I’m not immune to hatred or being hated just because I say so.
I think this is a great point. There’s a lot to be said about the disclosure, and there’s a lot to be said, in my opinion, about having a realistic attitude rather than a romantic one. Marriage is nice, but it doesn’t alter human nature. It doesn’t make anyone into a saint. It doesn’t cure financial woes. And it doesn’t guarantee goodness and generosity of spirit.
It can work, but it might not, and seeing that doesn’t make anyone less committed.
If you don’t trust somebody, you shouldn’t marry them. A prenup is a plan to break up before the marriage even starts.
I’ll assume that you believe this is true for anyone, and not just for yourself.
About 50% of marriages end in divorce. How many more are in a sham/unhappy/for the kids/ separated marriage is anyone’s guess.
I’ve heard that in some places a prenup can be thrown out by the judge if deemed unfair to the wife.
In that situation, those people should also be able to come to an equitable and civil agreement on the divorce. If you don’t trust someone to be civil, mature and fair in the event of a breakup, then you shouldn’t marry them.
Should, but that’s just not how things play out in reality. People change according to the situation they find themselves in to protect their own interests.
Eh. You and a few others are convinced that having a backup plan means a lack of trust in THE plan. That way of thinking seems to work for you, so more power to you, I guess. I don’t have any expectation of changing your mind.
There are a number of us (a fair number of us, based on the poll results) who don’t see the world that way, and who have as much belief in our relationships as you do, and still don’t believe that having a disaster preparedness plan means that we’re welcoming or focused on disaster. I’m sure you’ll go on thinking we’re wrong and/or deluding ourselves. And I’m sure you don’t have any expectation of changing our minds, either.
I agree that people should be able to be equitable and civil, I just don’t assume it will happen. Plan for the worst. Hope for the best. I’ve never seen a part of life that doesn’t benefit from that.
This is the attitude I was talking about upthread and it’s a supremely bad idea. People who are pitching you with “prenup or else” have zero interest in your economic welfare. If you’re okay with the whole pre-nup idea, for pete’s sake, get your own lawyer, negotiate in your best interests and get what you and your partner think is a fair share upfront, because your partner sure as hell isn’t out to protect you. And if you think this is mercenary, hell, he/she went there first.
Not to single you out but my asshole opinion is that 99% of people who have this starry-eyed “oh, I’ll do it because I want you to know it’s not about the money” attitude are really hoping that down the line the person is going to be moved by the romantic gesture and either not sign or will tear it up when there’s more “trust” in the relationship. Not going to happen. I am completely okay with people having prenups and whatnot (though I wouldn’t sign one) but I wish this magnanimous romantic self-sacrificial attitude towards prenups would die a quick death. With rare exceptions, the other person simply does not feel that way about you!
I’d definitely want a pre-nup. Not because I’m wealthy - I’m almost broke - but because I have and stand to inherit stuff which needs to stay in the family if at all possible.
Kids is a huge one. At this point if I were to be looking to get married it would be because my current marriage had ended. But I’m always going to be my kid’s mom. Even when they are adults. And I’ve spent a lot of effort and made a lot of sacrifices so that they’ll have college funds. I don’t need my wrongfully placed trust in their stepfather to end up screwing them over.
Retirement is another huge one. I’ve been saving 10%+ of my income in a 401k for a LONG time. My husband and I aren’t making sacrifices to do that now so that our next spouses can be married to us for three years and then walk off with half.