# Would you submit DNA in a voluntary genetic dragnet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362 "2009-08-04T23:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/101 "2009-08-08T01:37:31Z")
I’d just as soon give a crackhead my credit card. Hell no. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/102 "2009-08-08T05:53:26Z")
The entire concept of “_ruling you out_” speaks of an attitude of “_guilty until proven innocent_”, and going along with it only lends it more legitimacy. However, despite what others have said here, I think the possibility of a false positive test is much less a danger than the ramifications of being seen as uncooperative. I might put my own personal interests above the principal of which procedures police should use, but I would still refuse to cooperate with something like this. The reason being that while I may not put an abstract principal above my own safety, others may make a different choice, and the likelyhood that they will be unfairly singled out for their non-cooperation is much more than an abstract principal to me. The more people who stand with them, the less they can be singled out and harassed for doing the right thing. Also, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether the police catch their man. If they want to, they can go ahead; I myself have never understood the supposed benefit of punishing the guilty anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/103 "2009-08-08T06:36:48Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Also, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether the police catch their man. If they want to, they can go ahead; I myself have never understood the supposed benefit of punishing the guilty anyway. Did you just say that you don’t give a rat’s ass whether the rapist and murderer of a child gets caught or not and they shouldn’t be punished? I must have read that wrong otherwise it is one of the most batshit insane things I have ever heard in my life. Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/104 "2009-08-08T07:15:16Z")
Has anyone considered that the government can already collect newborn DNA for testing and experimental purposes by law in the U.S., and that particular DNA sample legally belongs to the federal government? I can’t help but think that while refusing to grant DNA right now may work well for all adults and children over 2, in 20 years it will be a different story. Since the collection mechanism is in place, the usage and identification of said DNA is baby step laws that could piecemeal out to full blown governmental ownership of all citizen DNA. It will only take another few acts of congress to allow law enforcement access to the collected DNA, and any other DNA they wish to access. In other words, it may already be too late. A law regarding the governmental access to and ownership of DNA was established as of last year for general experimental testing. I do not know if or how they identify said newborn DNA. How it goes on from now is potentially a dangerous journey. Legally, they can also sit nearby in any restaurant you frequent and collect “your” DNA from the seat, utensils, cups, glasses, napkin, etc. right now, can’t they? Also, if you’ve ever given DNA to any law enforcement agency, they are not required by federal law to destroy DNA samples or records. (IANAL, and if I’m incorrect, I would appreciate correction.) I don’t know what or whether states regulate this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/105 "2009-08-08T07:19:55Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Also, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether the police catch their man. If they want to, they can go ahead; I myself have never understood the supposed benefit of punishing the guilty anyway. The idea of incarceration is not punishment. It’s two-prongued: to prevent them from pulling something like that again by keeping them away from possible targets (ie protection), and rehabilitation. For people like the offender in the OP’s example, it is about protecting the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/106 "2009-08-08T07:27:27Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > How about this hypothetical scenario: UHC (which, btw, I am not against) becomes the norm in this country after several false starts and a single payer program is instituted (it is actually popular, with \>65% of the populace supporting it). Because the government finds itself going broke (the republicans won back the presidency and a slight majority in the house in 2016 and instituted a bunch of tax cuts for the rich), they decide to ration care. You, my friend, have just come down with a rare disorder that requires a testicle transplant to save your life. Unfortunately, the government health rationing board has examined your freely given DNA and determined that you are 97% more likely than the average testicle transplant recipient to die of chronic liver failure in the next 5 years due to a genetic penchant for alcoholism. The rationing board decides to ship you off to a hospice instead as they have written you off as a bad bet. > > Bet it would bother you then that your DNA was on record! You realize that wouldn’t require your DNA to be on record by any other means than, say, getting a blood test, right? You’re painting elephants on an ant’s hide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/107 "2009-08-08T07:27:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Did you just say that you don’t give a rat’s ass whether the rapist and murderer of a child gets caught or not and they shouldn’t be punished? I must have read that wrong otherwise it is one of the most batshit insane things I have ever heard in my life. > > Please elaborate. _Please_ lets not hijack this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/108 "2009-08-08T08:45:00Z")
How is that a hijack? The desire to help the police catch the criminal is one reason to provide them with DNA. Personally, I’d be willing to risk the very slight chance of police error in order to protect my community. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/109 "2009-08-08T08:58:20Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > I’d just as soon give a crackhead my credit card. Hell no. Well how about a little loan instead then/ Just a few dollars mind until my welfare check comes through. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/110 "2009-08-08T17:06:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You realize that wouldn’t require your DNA to be on record by any other means than, say, getting a blood test, right? > > You’re painting elephants on an ant’s hide. I know, but I love to paint. **Malleus, Incus, Stapes!**'s statement that he has nothing to fear from police because he never plans on being a criminal inspired me and I just had express myself… It was a work of art, no? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/111 "2009-08-08T17:14:34Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I would. I’ve never committed a crime, and I don’t plan to, so why should it bother me that they have my DNA on record? Maybe you don’t plan to now, but it’s good to keep your options open. Especially in this economy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/112 "2009-08-08T17:43:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you want convenience, just arrest everyone, or execute them all. It would save a _lot_ of time and effort. Geez, way to tone down the hyperbole :dubious: Asking you for your DNA doesnt violate any rights. You giving it voluntarily doesnt violate any rights. Don’t even compare that to rounding up people. There’s nothing wrong with the police trying to do things that will save time and money first before they switch to a more comprehensive, slower, and expensive mode. It is a good way to be efficient. > [@begbert2](#): > > The premise of this DNA dragnet is that people are _guilty_ until proven _innocent_. You admit it yourself by stating that when the 93 people submit to the innocuous requests, the other seven immidiately become suspects. When they didn’t do _anything_ wrong. Essentially, you are in favor of accusing innocent men of crimes, and thus subjecting them to unfavorable scrutiny by the law. No, the premise is to narrow down the list of suspects so that one does not have to waste time and effort. By way of elimination, those who do not clear their names simply seem more suspicious than others. Nothing proves their guilt, I never said they were guilty, nor did I imply that. I said that if their names are not cleared, they seem more suspicious than others and would deserve an extra look. Dont confuse some extra police attention with harassment > [@begbert2](#): > > That _alone_ is reason enough to resist a dragnet. When the assumption is guilt rather than innocence, you will be treated like a crook by the police, who are well-able to make themselves a hassle whether you’re guilty or not. This is something we should avoid doing to people who we have no reason to think deserve it. When the net is cast and nothing is caught, it needs to be recast wider. The OP said that weeks of fruitless search has turned up nothing. Do they try the same tactic? Give up? Or ask for VOLUNTEERS to help them? I would want the police to do every legal thing to find the killer, and that includes looking at people closely who do not clear themselves voluntarily. Theres no reason to follow suspicion to its most logical source. > [@begbert2](#): > > Signing up for this dragnet is throwing innocent people to the wolves. The wolves being some extra questioning by the police? Some people may find that unbearable; I’ll sit through their interrogation to help find a killer > [@begbert2](#): > > I plead the fifth. (Looks like the _constitution_ doesn’t think I should be doing the police’s job for them…) Great, avoid the question. That’s a real good GD tactic :dubious: > [@Oakminster](#): > > A DNA “mix up” that links the suspect to the crime pretty much guarantees an indictment. Maybe the defendant can both find and afford one or more experts to testify on his side, but the jury is going to decide who wins the swearing contest. > > Never create evidence for the prosecution. Don’t talk to cops. Or don’t blame the lawyer when you go to prison. I feel its wrong to assume something will go wrong and obstruct an investigation when cooperation could more likely lead to the capture of a criminal. To catch a murderer, I’ll take that miniscule chance > [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, you see, if I did not commit the crime then the police are wasting valuable time and resources gathering and checking out my DNA. Those CSIs and Lab Techs are often backed up and don’t work for free. So, if I don’t give them my DNA (assuming I did not commit the crime) I am saving them resources. Since I did not commit the crime, merely lived in the area, there’s also no reason to investigate me, so why should they? You assume that by merely obstructing their dragnet, they’re not going to try to find some other way to check your information. You can assume that, you’re free to do so. But if I’m convinced the police are going to look at the people who did not give their DNA voluntarily more closely, then I can only save them time and money by giving a sample. Also, by the process of elimination, even if you did not do it, allowing them access to your DNA may close off leads they otherwise would have pursued. That would be saving them time as well. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I feel certain minor crimes are too often enforced for reasons of revenue enhancement, not the public safety. You can drive a few miles over the speed limit and usually be perfectly safe. How many miles? In all conditions, in all areas, and all kinds of drivers and cars? There is no way to correct for every contingency so a uniform limit has to be enforced. Would you rather we have no speed limit at all everywhere? I dont see a plausible and better solution. And what convinced you that speed laws in general are done for revenue and not some, perhaps, misplaced concern for safety? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/113 "2009-08-08T18:30:24Z")
No way would i hand over my DNA. Fishing expeditions like this are stupid, and i’m not going to take the chance that something gets fucked up along the way. The “If you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to worry about” crowd in this thread is depressingly large. The US government already has all my fingerprints, and complete handprints, as a result of my recent permanent residency application. I’m not giving anyone anything else without a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/114 "2009-08-08T18:58:43Z")
The police will round up " the usual bloodtypes". They have a right to nothing without cause or warrant. I have done nothing wrong and I want to keep my distance from them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/115 "2009-08-08T19:05:39Z")
You know, I’ve been thinking about this a little more and love that video that was posted earlier. I may play it for my high school students on a short day. Think of your interaction with the police as a poker game with high stakes bets and bluffs. You win you walk away. You lose you go to jail. Would you really play with your cards exposed and his face down? NEVER give your opponant information. And if my neighbors give me crap for not giving DNA, they can screw off with a capital F. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/116 "2009-08-09T00:52:16Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No way would i hand over my DNA. Fishing expeditions like this are stupid, and i’m not going to take the chance that something gets fucked up along the way. The “If you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to worry about” crowd in this thread is depressingly large. > > The US government already has all my fingerprints, and complete handprints, as a result of my recent permanent residency application. I’m not giving anyone anything else without a warrant. I’ve given up trying to convince people that volunteering info to the police is stupid. Let them expose themselves to undue scrutiny if it makes them feel good. No skin off my back. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/117 "2009-08-09T02:24:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You assume that by merely obstructing their dragnet, they’re not going to try to find some other way to check your information. You can assume that, you’re free to do so. But if I’m convinced the police are going to look at the people who did not give their DNA voluntarily more closely, then I can only save them time and money by giving a sample. > > Also, by the process of elimination, even if you did not do it, allowing them access to your DNA may close off leads they otherwise would have pursued. That would be saving them time as well. ? How am I obstructing anything? It’s a silly idea, and any Police chief that came up with it should be cashiered. It would be expensive and generally worthless. There are at least 306,969,574 possible suspects here. At about $10,000 per test, it would cost around $3 billion and still have many suspects untested. The crime lab would be backed up for years, and many violent criminals would have a free reign for months, since no other DNA tests would be able to be performed while they are wasting time on this. So, this would also cost lives, not just money. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/118 "2009-08-09T02:32:08Z")
I guess I’m in the minority here, because I’d do it. But then, I also like the idea of a national DNA database. Put everyone’s DNA on file and make it accessible to law enforcement agencies who need it. Then, if there’s a crime, it becomes easy to test DNA found at the scene and narrow down a list of suspects. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/119 "2009-08-09T02:40:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I guess I’m in the minority here, because I’d do it. But then, I also like the idea of a national DNA database. Put everyone’s DNA on file and make it accessible to law enforcement agencies who need it. Then, if there’s a crime, it becomes easy to test DNA found at the scene and narrow down a list of suspects. See, I have no problem with a national DNA database that collects and saves lots of samples. It’s a great investigative tool that has exonerated so many innocent men. But if you’re going to collect samples, there has to be some logic to it. Convicted felons? Go ahead and keep their DNA profiles. They’re statistically more likely to recidivate. But normal law abiding citizens? That goes too far, and there’s no compelling reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362/120 "2009-08-09T03:01:32Z")
I might even be ok with a national DNA database intended to collect and save samples of everybody–or everybody with a Driver’s License or who wishes to vote or something. Well, actually, I’d probably resist either linkage on the grounds of the other consequences they cause–detering people from voting, and promoting people driving without driver’s licenses. But I’d be ok in theory with providing MY DNA to such a database. Where this one makes me squicky is the whole bit where it’s a voluntary genetic dragnet–we’re trying to find someone from a pool of geographically convenient people, or worse, we’re trying to figure out which people we should focus our efforts on based on who says “sure, take my DNA I’ve got nothing to hide” and who says “No Way, Jose!” The more I think about it, the less enthused I am about providing my DNA to a large, generic database for future use in crime solving. But I’m mostly with **Moidalize** –if you want to collect the DNA of convicted felons, go for it, but you need a better motivation than I’ve yet seen in this thread to persuade me that the ordinary and law abiding should submit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-submit-dna-in-a-voluntary-genetic-dragnet/505362.md?page=7)