# Would you support a war with Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795 "2012-01-27T00:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/21 "2012-01-27T02:06:50Z")
Ah by ‘three way’ I should have also perhaps been clearer. The US and Israel would be allies of course but Israel isn’t under the control of the Americans. The Israeli’s cannot to stopped by Washington from acting although considerable pressure can be heaped upon them. If Israel really decides it needs to do something, it will. I also wouldn’t be too sure about Iran’s attitude toward mutual destruction nor it’s attitude towards its own citizens. Iran’s Ayatollah’s are heads of a Shiite martyrdom cult. Half a million Iranians were killed in the war with Iraq, it doesn;t value it’s own citizens too highly except under the terms of it’s own religious viewpoint. They sent children in their thousands to march into mine fields to clear them. I’ve read reports that say 100,000 of them though I can’t find a reliable cite for the numbers. Cite for the mine field story: [Matthias Küntzel: Ahmadinejad's Demons](http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/ahmadinejads-demons) I actually also doubt that Iran wants to invite nuclear weapons to rain down on it. But nuclear stand off can mean brinkmanship which is the tactic that Khrushchev used so brilliantly (and dangerously) when he initiating the Cuban Missile Crisis. Brinkmanship games with a nuclear-armed Iran is not a good future for the world. I only came to the opinion in my OP earlier today and have been ruminating on it for a few hours. I’m interested to hear what others say because it would be nice to be wrong about this! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/22 "2012-01-27T02:07:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > To say nothing of the fact that Iran’s actions have most likely _already_ sparked a regional nuclear arms race. America’s actions have been _more_ than enough to spark such a race, even if Iran vanished tomorrow. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t understand the logic behind imposing sanctions on a nation when our own intelligence has been unable to uncover proof of their pursuit of nuclear weapons. It seems like they’re just aiming for regime change. America has been the enemy of Iran since before the present “regime” existed. Their quest for nuclear weapons is just the latest excuse. At most, it adds urgency just because if they _do_ get nukes we’ll largely be forced to use actual diplomacy with them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/23 "2012-01-27T02:07:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is, ultimately, a flawed calculus. Remember that Iran attacked US millitary assets not once, but twice in the period between the early 80’s and mid 90’s. The US’ military response was essentially nil. I didn’t say Iran was actually threatened by the U.S. > [@](#): > > Further, protecting itself from possible invasion and attack (by Israel and the US at least) would be as simple as letting the IAEA conduct the Additional Protocols and stopping its support of Hamas and Hezbollah. Talking about Iran ‘deterring threats’ is a bit like talking about a robber ‘deterring threats’ by carrying a weapon into the homes he breaks into. I am not saying Iran is actually being threatened\* by the U.S. and Israel. I do think the Iranian government wants to neutralize the threat of military action against them. \*Bush’s implied “Axis of Evil” threats notwithstanding even though they played a large part in starting this. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/24 "2012-01-27T02:08:25Z")
Possibility of war with Iran reminded me of a part of the Eisenhower- farewell address to the nation speech. Even back in 1961 this kind of thing was being warned against by an outgoing american president and war hero. "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, either sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/25 "2012-01-27T02:09:48Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Iran’s Ayatollah’s are heads of a Shiite martyrdom cult. This kind of nonsense doesn’t clarify matters. Iran’s mullahs and ayatollahs were revolutionaries 30-odd years ago and now a lot of them are old men who want to hold on to power and keep things the way they are. They’re not in a big hurry to die. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/26 "2012-01-27T02:10:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t say Iran was actually threatened by the U.S. Ah, so they are seeking to “deter US threats” against them much as my Magical, Dragon Repelling Rock repels dragons. Fair enough. Speaking of which, dragons can really mess up your house/car/wife. I’m offering a firesale: no shipping and handling on any order of five or more MDRR’s. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/27 "2012-01-27T02:13:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah, so they are seeking to “deter US threats” against them much as my Magical, Dragon Repelling Rock repels dragons. Fair enough. I’m not playing this game. I think Iran wants to make sure no one can threaten them (however empty that threat is), and nuclear weapons would do that. Meanwhile I think your analysis is pretty good and it raises the ugly possibility of Iran and Israel acting like India and Pakistan have been. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/28 "2012-01-27T02:16:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah, so they are seeking to “deter US threats” against them much as my Magical, Dragon Repelling Rock repels dragons. Fair enough. Have and dragons shown up recently and made threats against you? Have any recently destroyed your neighbors because they _didn’t_ have anti-dragon rocks? Because that would have to be so for your analogy to work. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/29 "2012-01-27T02:21:24Z")
Iran has been funneling weapons to the Taliban to be used against us so we’re already at war with them at some level. So the question as I see it is at what level are we willing to engage in. Should we support dissidents in the country with the CIA? Funnel weapons to militants inside Iran? Destroy their nuclear research program? As I see it there is sufficient discord among Iranians to bring the government down from within. That’s just a function of time. The only question is whether we should support efforts to keep them from building nuclear weapons before that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/30 "2012-01-27T02:24:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Should we support dissidents in the country with the CIA? Funnel weapons to militants inside Iran? I wouldn’t be surprised if things like that were already happening. > [@](#): > > As I see it there is sufficient discord among Iranians to bring the government down from within. As much as I’d like to see that, I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/31 "2012-01-27T02:26:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not playing this game. What game? I thought you just agreed that Iran wants to “deter US threats” but that you “didn’t say Iran was actually threatened by the U.S.” Do you or do you not agree that Iran is not currently being threatened by the US with military action? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/32 "2012-01-27T02:27:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re not reading for comprehension John. The statement was in the context of Iran not using the bomb once they got one, and war resulting from their simple possession. The statement was in the context of a Cold War. That’s not the kind of “war” he’s asking if people would support. But like I said, if it makes you feel better, show me where all this serious talk in the US is coming from. I don’t see it. > [@](#): > > As for the UNSC absolutely not authorizing limited military strikes against Iranian nuclear sites? That’s quite a leap. Most of the civilized world is against Iran getting nuclear weapons and the rest of the world may very well be willing to turn a blind eye. And the UN’s authorization is not necessary, only the UNSC’s _inaction_ in the face of attacks on Iran. Let’s be clear. The OP is talking about a war with Iran, not a so-called surgical strike. Re-read the OP. He’s talking about: > [@](#): > > I think a war in Iran would be extremely bloody, would involve a huge number of troops, potentially destabilise the entire region, dramatically increase terrorism both in the middle east and in the west, lead to the death of far far more Allied troops than both Iraq and Afghanistan combined, and send oil prices soaring leading to a great risk of a financial depression. However I think this is still preferable to Iran getting the nuke. The question is: do you support a full-on Iraq-style invasion war, by a UN[SC] sanctioned coalition. If the Israelis want to go it alone in a war with Iraq, they can knock themselves out doing so. But that’s a topic for a different thread than this one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/33 "2012-01-27T02:29:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So the question as I see it is at what level are we willing to engage in. Should we support dissidents in the country with the CIA? Funnel weapons to militants inside Iran? We’ve been doing that for many years. > [@Magiver](#): > > Destroy their nuclear research program? That would take an occupation or nukes. > [@Magiver](#): > > As I see it there is sufficient discord among Iranians to bring the government down from within. That’s just a function of time. The only question is whether we should support efforts to keep them from building nuclear weapons before that happens. Nonsense; any replacement government would be just as much our enemy\* unless it was a puppet government, and popular revolution won’t produce that puppet for us. We were the enemy of Iran _before_ the present regime, we will most likely continue to be its enemy _after_ the present regime unless we - not them - change. \*Even if it didn’t start out that way; our own attitude and behavior insures it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/34 "2012-01-27T02:30:37Z")
And and by the way, Obama refusing to rule out military action against Iran made me realise how close we are to this becoming a genuine issue. This combined with a British cabinet minister today who previously had been quoted a couple of years ago as saying that war with Iran was “inconceivable” was today asked if he stood by those words on a television debate. He simply said “I’ve no comment to make.” I think it’s seriously being talked about by our politicians. It’s probably because they want to use it as a threat to make Iran comply with various requests and to back up the EUs sanctions newly imposed this week. But once you imply a threat, it’s a slippery slope from there. Maybe this is being talked about more in Europe than in the US: for instance there’s an anti Iran war protest outside the US embassy in London tomorrow. I’ve worked in the media for over a decade: I know how to read between the lines of a story, and I reckon this’ll be the only news in town by the summer. Again, hope I’m wrong. BTW, America has been building up its forces in the Gulf, and the USS Abraham Lincoln is on it’s way to join other forces already positioned there. That’s not the sign of an imminent strike I’m sure, but it is a sign of the US moving it’s pieces into tactically wise positions to give the President some better options should the need arise… Further reading if you want it: > **[Iran: The Road to War?](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-the-road-to-war_b_1233687)** > > The drums are sounding for war on Iran. The leading Republican presidential candidates pledge military action as soon as they cross the threshold of the White House. The Obama administration sharpens its rhetoric in accompaniment to imposing coercive... > **[How To Start A War With Iran – OpEd](https://www.eurasiareview.com/26012012-how-to-start-a-war-with-iran-oped/)** > > In May 1967, Israel was itching to launch a preemptive attack on Egypt. The director of Mossad at that time, Meir Amit, had a meeting with John Hadden, the CIA chief in Tel Aviv. Hadden warned Amit… > **[Iran EU sanctions: Q & A](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9033640/Iran-EU-sanctions-Q-and-A.html)** > > What sanctions has the European Union imposed on Iran? [http://www.presstv.ir/detail/223215.html](http://www.presstv.ir/detail/223215.html) > **[Former IDF chief: Israel must prepare for possible attack on Iran](https://www.haaretz.com/2012-01-26/ty-article/former-idf-chief-israel-must-prepare-for-possible-attack-on-iran/0000017f-f7bd-d460-afff-ffff64930000)** > > Gabi Ashkenazi says Israel needs to do all it can to operate under the radar against Tehran, but stresses that military option must be on the table. > **[Improbability of conflict with Iran](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/improbability-of-conflict-with-iran-1.971765)** > > America lacks the will and desire to go to war. Tehran lacks the capability to challenge its enemy even if it wanted to ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/35 "2012-01-27T02:32:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What game? The game of caricaturing someone else’s position. > [@](#): > > Do you or do you not agree that Iran is not currently being threatened by the US with military action? I don’t think Iran is being threatened with military action. I think Iran wants to make sure it can’t credibly be threatened because nuclear weapons are a strong deterrent to invasions and other military action. > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > And and by the way, Obama refusing to rule out military action against Iran made me realise how close we are to this becoming a genuine issue. Obama has been saying that since he took office, and Bush said it for several years, too. It is not close to being a real issue - it’s bluster, and it’s really the only possible position to take if you’re a government that doesn’t want Iran to have nukes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/36 "2012-01-27T02:35:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The game of caricaturing someone else’s position. Lighten up, it was a joke. I figured that offering you a bulk discount on Dragon Repelling Rocks would’ve been a good clue. Although, if you’ve got extra cash… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/37 "2012-01-27T02:36:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if things like that were already happening. That would be my assumption too considering the toys that turn up in the strangest of places. > [@Marley23](#): > > As much as I’d like to see that, I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. how many governments have fallen in that area of the world in the last 2 years? I’ve lost count. If I pick up the paper tomorrow and Syria is added to the list I wouldn’t be remotely surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/38 "2012-01-27T02:39:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This kind of nonsense doesn’t clarify matters. Iran’s mullahs and ayatollahs were revolutionaries 30-odd years ago and now a lot of them are old men who want to hold on to power and keep things the way they are. They’re not in a big hurry to die. You may be right. I’m not going to second guess what they believe. I’ve no doubt they’d be deep in bunkers should the shit hit the fan. Is a young extremist more of a danger than an old extremist? You could argue both ways I reckon. Again, I’d imagine that Iran would not just launch nukes and happily wait for retaliation. I’m worried that we’d get a Cold War scenario which could in turn lead to disaster, although I wouldn’t rule the former sort of disaster out. The fact is, there’s a ton of conjecture here and I guess that makes it all the more scary. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/39 "2012-01-27T02:42:43Z")
[QUOTE=WillFarnaby] You say you would support a war if they closed the straits. They threaten to close the straits in retaliation for escalating sanctions. You also support imposing sanctions. This seems to be the current state of mind for the U.S. government and it seems conflicting to me. [/QUOTE] I support sanctions because I think they work and are the lesser of two evils wrt this situation. They are certainly escalating tensions between the US, Europe and Iran. Price of doing business. If Iran CHOOSES to take it up a notch and attempt to close the straights then that is their choice…and they will have to pay the consequences for that choice. Conversely, Iran could easily avoid ever increasing sanctions by simply fully opening up their nuclear program to UN inspections and fully complying with the NNPT, a treaty they signed. Contrary to what Der Trihs says, if Iran decided not to be so aggressively contrary, and would instead join with much of the rest of the world, they would have zero to fear from the US. Saudi isn’t scrambling to build or acquire nuclear weapons, afaik, in the stark fear that the US is going to go rogue and invade them to swipe their oil. Neither is Belgium. Iran would have nothing to fear either if they decided to cooperate and play nice. They CHOOSE not to, at least thus far…so, that’s where those sanctions come into play. To me this is the best and most optimal path the US and Europe can take to TRY and prevent or at least delay Iran getting nukes. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand the logic behind imposing sanctions on a nation when our own intelligence has been unable to uncover proof of their pursuit of nuclear weapons. It seems like they’re just aiming for regime change. How do you know our intelligence has been unable to uncover proof? What constitutes proof? Are you privy to it? Would you believe it if, say, the CIA came out tomorrow and said they have such proof? Based on the UN’s own findings I’d say the odds are relatively balanced that Iran is in fact pursuing nuclear weapons. That said, regime change is certainly a possibility, given the increasing pressures on the Iranian state and it’s government, especially with this new set of sanctions. It’s easily solvable for the Iranians, however…if they really aren’t trying to build nukes they simply have to open up their nuclear program to full UN inspection and strive to meet the UN (not the US’s) compliance issues. If they did that, regardless of how evil you might believe the US to be, Europe would certainly back off of their sanctions and normalize relations with Iran…and US sanctions (which I don’t for a moment believe we’d maintain in the face of a fully open Iran) would be pretty much meaningless. It’s the European sanctions that are really hurting Iran…they have gotten used to a lack of trade ties to the US. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/40 "2012-01-27T02:43:40Z")
Remember how Iraq worked out? Iran is more than four times as big. Imagine trying to occupy it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795.md?page=3)