# Would you support a war with Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795 "2012-01-27T00:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/121 "2012-01-29T20:11:41Z")
Well, William C. Rogers III got a pretty badge for killing 290 civilians on Flight 655: > **[Iran Air Flight 655](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)** > > Iraqi invasion of Iran (1980) > Stalemate (1981) > Iranian offensives to free Iranian territory (1981–82) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/122 "2012-01-29T20:20:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The last time the US military war gamed an invasion of Iran, an entire US Carrier fleet got sent to the bottom of the Persian Gulf. It was so humiliating the Top Brass ordered the Brass ordered the fleet “refloated”, ordered “the Iranians” to stop using the tactics that had worked and for the exercise to continue. The Marine General leading “the Iranians” resigned in protest. > > In short, I wouldn’t be so sure. The exercise to which you are referring - Millennium Challenge - was NOT a war game waged against Iran; it was waged against a theoretical nation, called simply “Red,” that was meant to be largely representative of Iraq. The Red commander, Gen. Paul van Riper, did not resign; he stayed on through the exercise although he eventually gave up giving orders because he wasn’t being listened to. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/123 "2012-01-29T20:26:17Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You understand the tv miniseries was written by about 10 people, and “based” on Ambrose’s work. People more directly involved than Ambrose include Spielberg and Hanks. > > It’s entertainment for an emotionally invested prime time US audience - not a history lesson. Once again, did you actually watch the miniseries or are you making your judgement based on the title of one of IIRC ten episodes. Furthermore, since you’re going to bring up Hanks and Spielberg both men have given dozens of interviews on the subject. Had they really made this miniseries with the goal of arguing that the US got into the war to “save the Jews” then it should be childishly simple to produce an example of them or someone else connected with the miniseries please do so. Now, if you hadn’t actually seen the series but were making some judgement on it based on some vague understanding of it, then simply say that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/124 "2012-01-29T20:39:18Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Well, William C. Rogers III got a pretty badge for killing 290 civilians on Flight 655: > > [Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655) Did you link to the wrong article? I ask because otherwise you must have misread it because there’s nothing in there saying he “got a pretty badge for killing 290 civilians.” The closest we come to is the mention that he recieved a medal for several years worth of service, and having come from a navy town I can testify that those types of medals being given to naval officers after years of deployment is pretty common. Furthermore the article specifically states that no mention of the accidental shooting of the airliner was mentioned. So, once again, did you accidentally link to the wrong article because otherwise you made an at best grossly misleading statement after badly misreading an article in wikipedia(which is hardly a reliable source to begin with). ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/125 "2012-01-29T20:47:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m surprised. > > I’ve never met someone outraged by the US attempts to prevent Nazi Germany from developing nukes, but based on the logic of your arguments you do. > > Congrats. It’s always nice to meet people with the courage to stand up for unpopular beliefs. We were at war with Germany and without doubt Germany would have used one on us. We aren’t at war with Iran and they wouldn’t nuke us. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/126 "2012-01-29T20:48:20Z")
And seriously, have you seen the amount of medals U.S. servicemen wear? The brass must hand out citations for looking both ways when crossing the street. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/127 "2012-01-29T20:49:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Furthermore the article specifically states that no mention of the accidental shooting of the airliner was mentioned. What??? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/128 "2012-01-29T20:50:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The exercise to which you are referring - Millennium Challenge - was NOT a war game waged against Iran; it was waged against a theoretical nation, called simply “Red,” that was meant to be largely representative of Iraq. The Red commander, Gen. Paul van Riper, did not resign; he stayed on through the exercise although he eventually gave up giving orders because he wasn’t being listened to. It was pretty clear meant to be Iraq or Iran and General Van Riper has said he resigned because after “Red” was able to successfully sink a US carrier fleet, the brass decide to save face by “refloating” the fleet and then hamstringing “Red” so that the American military wouldn’t lose. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/129 "2012-01-29T20:53:04Z")
> [@David42](#): > > We were at war with Germany and without doubt Germany would have used one on us. We aren’t at war with Iran and they wouldn’t nuke us. So then prior to 1941, it would have been kosher for Germany to get nukes? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/130 "2012-01-29T20:54:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re shifting the goal posts. > > His claim was that all nations deserved nuclear weapons not all nations except those the US was at war with. > > I suspect he’ll rethink his argument and come up with one that’s better thought out. You’re the one shifting the goalposts, **Ibn**. My claim is relevant to today. There is no need to pretend I said it about a previous situation in the past, or that what was happening then is relevant to now. I am fine with Germany having nukes today. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/131 "2012-01-29T20:55:14Z")
> [@David42](#): > > What??? Er yes. That’s what the article that Pretty Vacant cited says. It does nothing to support his asinine suggestion that American naval officers were awarded medals for killing Iranian civilians and shooting down an Iranian airliner. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/132 "2012-01-29T20:57:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have no idea what this means. Sorry. I do agree with you. I was just messing around being silly and conflating all my posts in various threads. It is pretty much meaningless, please disregard. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/133 "2012-01-29T20:57:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And seriously, have you seen the amount of medals U.S. servicemen wear? The brass must hand out citations for looking both ways when crossing the street. In all the branches, with the possible exception of the Marines medal inflation is an issue, and, if anything, it’s worse in the Navy and the Air Force than the Army. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/134 "2012-01-29T21:00:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then prior to 1941, it would have been kosher for Germany to get nukes? Why do you insist that U.S./ German relations in the 40’s are an appropriate analog for U.S./Iran relations today? It’s a different situation. For instance, in the 40’s whoever builds the bomb first may very well win the war. **THAT IS NOT THE CASE TODAY.** ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/135 "2012-01-30T07:55:44Z")
Let them have their nukes. We can have the threat of a response if they use them. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/136 "2012-01-30T08:19:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Let them have their nukes. We can have the threat of a response if they use them. I have to ask again, who exactly is “they”? The problem I have with this nuclear cock-waving is that democracies don’t go to war with each other so, by definition, the country at the other end is not representative of ‘the people’. Yet it is only the people - mostly the civilian population of men and women and lots and lots of children in that particualr country right now - who get incinerated, while the ruling class will be deep in bunkers somewhere. That’ll show “them”, right? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/137 "2012-01-30T08:23:23Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > How you going to pay for this war? > Want another credit downgrade? > Another lost war - the US is on a real roll with that? If someone could help me out with these questions please, not least given the USA lost in Iraq because of something the military had no answer for - IEDs: assuming the banking class allow further imperial action, how is that going to work? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/138 "2012-01-30T08:54:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The exercise to which you are referring - Millennium Challenge - was NOT a war game waged against Iran; it was waged against a theoretical nation, called simply “Red,” that was meant to be largely representative of Iraq. The Red commander, Gen. Paul van Riper, did not resign; he stayed on through the exercise although he eventually gave up giving orders because he wasn’t being listened to. The point stands though: van Riper did manage to cripple Blue while sticking to the (very restrictive) letter of what his backwards Red forces were limited to, simply by using unconventional tactics (such as fleets of zodiacs fitted with antiship missiles, or relaying his orders via runners so they couldn’t be intercepted by ELINT). On the one hand, he was a bit of a dick for doing so, because as I understand it the point of the war game was not to examine whether Red _could_ beat Blue all other things being equal, but rather to assess the performance of Blue if Red was doing what intel suggested Iraq would be doing. On the other, you’d think the Blue leaders’ plans shouldn’t have had the kind of giant gaps van Riper exploited _no matter what they expected the enemy to do_. If only because in the Real World, miltary intel so very often has its head firmly lodged bumside. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/139 "2012-01-30T11:47:33Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I have to ask again, who exactly is “they”? > > The problem I have with this nuclear cock-waving is that democracies don’t go to war with each other so, by definition, the country at the other end is not representative of ‘the people’. Greece & Turkey ring any bells? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795/140 "2012-01-30T12:15:32Z")
Of course. Both have, however, been in and out of democracy and the two have also had several conflicts - of all scales - so I can’t begin to address your statement. Democracy/capitalism/no war is not a new concept, it would be interesting to note an exception to the rule if it exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-a-war-with-iran/610795.md?page=8)