# Would you support parental licensing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261 "2002-11-11T07:22:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/41 "2002-11-13T07:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gassendi \* > \*\*I’ve taught in public schools. > > Definitely yes. \*\* I don’t think poor parenting is the sole reserve of people of the lower socio-economic classes there **Gassendi**. It could be said that some richer parents just compensate for their equally lousy parenting by providing more material resources for their offspring. It’s easy to be a ‘good’ parent when you have live-in nannies, or send the kids off to boarding school. I wonder how Queen Elizabeth would score on such a test of her parenting skills? No, I think parental licensing sucks. Instead of applying such punitive and draconian measures, it should be up to the community to _support_ parents who maybe lack the basic skills to rear kids. ---
**Author:** ![Eidolon909](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce7236/32.png) [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/42 "2002-11-13T10:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by easy e \* > > **Could you further explain that? The definition of amenorrhea that I am familiar with is a cessation of the menstral cycle in women, usually due to low body fat.** It is the practice of prolonging the cessation of the menstrual cycle by continuing to breast feed children long after it becomes a necessity. In some parts of Africa women will breast feed their children up to age six-eight in order to remain in amenorrhea and thus be unable to conceive. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lee_ > > **Medical science? Should that include any who avoid bowel impaction by taking a laxative or enema? How about eating bran? Any who use aspirin or tylenol to reduce a fever? What of those who bandage a cut? Why stop at medical science, what of those that have the temerity to wear shoes and clothes and use other technical measures like fire to protect them from the elements? Surely these things make the race less hardy.** Its difficult to take your point seriously when your apparent slipperly slope argument contains such assasine hyperbole. Your logic: A = B then Z must occur next. It does not follow. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by KellyM_ > > **Does that include people who are saved by medical science after being hit by a car? Or is the inability to dodge badly-driven cars proof of “genetic inferiority”?** You answer your own question. Unless you’re personally postulating that there is a gene for luck. If you can’t see the difference between being born with severe genetic defects and an otherwise healthy person being hit by a car then its because you choose not to for the sake of making a specious point. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/43 "2002-11-13T10:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eidolon909 \* > \*\* > You answer your own question. Unless you’re personally postulating that there is a gene for luck. If you can’t see the difference between being born with severe genetic defects and an otherwise healthy person being hit by a car then its because you choose not to for the sake of making a specious point. \*\* Ok, then what severe genetic defects would those be? With most severe genetic defects: 1. The person dies before he/she can reproduce because medical science has not advanced enough to help them. 2. Are born naturally sterile or with infertility problems. 3. Can survive adulthood but are physically weak and will opt by their own choice not to have kids. 4. Have mental problems and as the society has dictated that anyone having sex with them will be accused of rape. In none of these cases is forced sterilization necessary. What diseases are you thinking about? ---
**Author:** ![Eidolon909](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce7236/32.png) [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/44 "2002-11-13T11:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\* > > Ok, then what severe genetic defects would those be? With most severe genetic defects: > > 1. The person dies before he/she can reproduce because medical science has not advanced enough to help them. > > 2. Are born naturally sterile or with infertility problems. > > 3. Can survive adulthood but are physically weak and will opt by their own choice not to have kids. > > 4. Have mental problems and as the society has dictated that anyone having sex with them will be accused of rape. > > In none of these cases is forced sterilization necessary. What diseases are you thinking about? \*\* Well the dialogue got a bit off track. It was **k2dave** who is for sterilization of carriers or expressors of dominant (I presume) defective genes. I am for the termination of fetuses which express said genes. As for which specific syndromes etc. Cystic fibrosis, Down’s Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy come immediately to mind. As for your list, for the most part I would agree which is why I support pre-natal termination. Although there have been cases of severely to moderately retarded individuals (ala Downs) who have been in relationships and wanted children and fought legally for their right to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/45 "2002-11-13T12:13:25Z")
Dude - men with cystic fibrosis are all sterile, anyhow, Until recently, none of them - male or female - survived much past 20 (now I think some of them survive into the early 30’s) so it’s not like they had much opportunity to reproduce. So it’s a non-issue. Unless you propose to sterilize the non-sumptomatic carriers - which, by one estimate, may be as high as 1 in 75 Causasians. That’s an awful lot of folks. Cerebral Palsy is NOT a genetic defect (so far as we know). It appears to be more of a injury to the developing brain, which is why it’s more common in difficult or early births. Sterilizing someone with CP is like sterilizing someone who lost a leg in a car accident - the only real difference is where in the life cycle the injury occurred. Down’s syndrome - due to the chromosomal defect, can they reproduce? I’ve heard of various retarded couples having children, but the instances I’ve heard of neither party had Down’s. In actual fact, very few diseases are solely genetic. So it’s a very poor reason to go around sterilizing folks. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/46 "2002-11-13T19:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eidolon909 \* > \*\* > > It is the practice of prolonging the cessation of the menstrual cycle by continuing to breast feed children long after it becomes a necessity. In some parts of Africa women will breast feed their children up to age six-eight in order to remain in amenorrhea and thus be unable to conceive. > \*\* Um, according to my doctor and La Leche League, breastfeeding is only an effective means of birth control for the _first six months_. Do you have any documentation that breastfeeding can be effective birth control for as long as six years? Or even one year? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/47 "2002-11-13T21:48:05Z")
**Cessandra** , breastfeeding-induced amenorrhea is not an effective method of “birth control” by Western standards. But that’s because Westerners require their birth control to be 100% effective. Two of the most common forms of birth **spacing** techniques are extended breastfeeding and coitus interruptus. Neither will absolutely prevent pregnancy, but both will significantly reduce the chance of getting pregnant (per instance of coitus) and thus act to increase birth spacing. For what it’s worth, amenorrhea in Africa is as often a result of starvation as it is of breastfeeding. Women will not menstruate when seriously malnourished. The culling of genetic “defects” from the human gene pool is, in my mind, totally abhorrent. “We’re sorry, ma’am, but the law requires that we terminate your pregnancy.” You try telling that to a 40 year old pregnant but otherwise childless woman. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/48 "2002-11-14T13:10:04Z")
I think I’d have to say a cautious yes. Very cautious 'though. I do not approve of requiring a person to take tests. However, a very light licensing system wouldn’t neccesarily be a bad thing. Basically just a registration, but _pre_conception - with some form of mild penalty for registration once already pregnant - and some sort of parenting classes before the birth of the child. Say, an hour a week for all ‘parents’ who will be responsible for raising the child, so as not to exclude, for example, single men or women who wish to have a child, gay couples or other mildly non-standard combinations. Maybe a very loose finance check to see if they are in fact capable of financially supporting a child, but even that is a somewaht shaky from an ethical ground, and a background check for history of abuses, etc. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/49 "2002-11-14T13:27:58Z")
**kitarak** , what would you do in the case of a woman who gets pregnant without having acquired a license, and cannot afford to pay the fine but it otherwise deemed competent? Take her child away? Force her to have an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/50 "2002-11-15T01:00:57Z")
I don’t know. I didn’t say it was a perfect system, and don’t claim to have a way to make it work. My point was that, were such a system proposed with sufficiently loose restrictions (similar in nature to what I proposed, but not neccesarily the same) in a manner I considered workable, then I would tentatively support it. For the record, I wasn’t neccesarily suggesting a fine as a penalty (although I can’t suggest a sensible alternative atm either; maybe regular checks by some authority for the first X years of the child’s life?). However, if someone is unable to pay even a relatively mild fine, they may not be in a suitable financial situation to raise a child. I don’t know - my personal experience with that kind of situation is thankfully minimal, but it does leave me in a rather inadequate period to judge. Certainly taking children away (without evidence of abuse) or forcing an abortion is a big No. Beyond that I can’t really say. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/51 "2002-11-15T01:01:02Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s easy to be a ‘good’ parent when you have live-in nannies, or send the kids off to boarding school. I wonder how Queen Elizabeth would score on such a test of her parenting skills? And look at the problems in her family, in spaite of its advantages… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/52 "2002-11-15T02:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > . It was k2dave who is for sterilization of carriers or expressors of dominant (I presume) defective genes. I am for the termination of fetuses which express said genes. All I said was I was considering it. I’m sorry I upset some of you but I am concerned that we are weaking humanity and if trends continue we will not be able to survive w/o medical science - which to me is not a good thing. Maybe one day we will be able to correct genetic defects - but until we do I think we should try to keep humanity strong. As for the hit by the bus problem - it’s problems that would be passed on to offspring and being hit by a bus doesn’t fall into that. Strange that I would consider sterilization for such people but not extermination (abortion) ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/53 "2002-11-15T02:38:12Z")
**k2dave** , just curious: do glasses count as “medical science”? If so, do you recommend the sterilization of the 80% of humanity that require vision correction? ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/54 "2002-11-15T20:20:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > \*\* party had Down’s. > > In actual fact,\* very few diseases are solely genetic \*. So it’s a very poor reason to go around sterilizing folks. \*\* Muscular Dystrophy - and there are over \*two hundred different strains of it \* is genetic. I know. My four brothers have it. Two are dead. One is bedridden, the last is just waiting to be bedridden. _There is absolutely no cure for this horrific disease._ Treatments are only guess work. Gene therapy …well…who knows. Really nice people and their families are frickin’ robbed of a life because of this bastard of a disease. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, except Bin Laden and pedophiles. Do I think sterlization should be enforced on someone like this? Let me put it to you this way, I feel so strongly on this subject and my views are so harsh that it would probably get me flamed right out of here, so for once in my life, I shall keep my mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/55 "2002-11-15T21:46:44Z")
For those who think adoption is the answer…who are you suggesting be the adoptive parents for these kids? I’m an adoptive mom. I’m on several listserves for adoptive parents. I’ve watched parents turn down referrals for children because the birthmother had one drink during pregnancy. Or smoked. I’ve seen them turn down referrals because the child was low birthweight or born before 37 weeks gestation. Or the birthmother was younger than 18 (or older than 30). Or because the birthfather was unknown and unable to provide genetic history. There are lots of waiting adoptive parents out there - they are waiting because they don’t want a child who has tested positive at birth for cocaine. If they wanted that, they wouldn’t be waiting. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/56 "2002-11-16T01:10:52Z")
some people are who they are because of their parents, some people are who they are despite them. some people are who they are because of their genetic defects, some people are who they are despite them. and i am going to say something to you k2dave. do you know which diseases most westerners die of? do you know which diseases most money is spent on treating or curing? do you know which of these diseases have strong genetic components? if i wanted to implement your sterilisation policy to remove “drains on the economy”, the first people i would target are those with a family history of high blood pressure, stroke, and heart attacks. the next bunch are those with a family history of cancer. at that point i’ve sterilised just about every other person in the west. at THAT point i start on the obscure recessive genetic problems. can you guess i’m not in favour? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/57 "2002-11-16T01:25:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kambuckta \* > \*\* > > I don’t think poor parenting is the sole reserve of people of the lower socio-economic classes there **Gassendi**. It could be said that some richer parents just compensate for their equally lousy parenting by providing more material resources for their offspring. \*\* I should clarify - my experience as a teacher was in two school districts. One was a very rich community, and the other a poor one. My opinion about parental licensing is based on what I saw in BOTH places, and has little to do with socio-economic status. Unfortunately, parental incompetance crosses all lines. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/58 "2002-11-16T02:03:51Z")
**kellym** you make a good point but are glasses genetic or environmental and would the lack of them prevent mating? Going back to what I said before - now that I have time to think it over I think it was stranger that you would want to exteriminate (aka abort) such people rather then letting them live then the other way around. (I don’t think that was kellym who said that last part - but’s it’s on page one and the board is slow). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/59 "2002-11-16T02:09:23Z")
also **kellym** said > [@](#): > > I’m a transsexual lesbian Does this mean that you were a guy at one time and likes girls then went through sex reassignment surgury to female (and still like girls)? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261/60 "2002-11-16T02:17:01Z")
**irishgirl** the problem with that is you are trying to address so called drains on the economy diseases and apply it to strenghining the human race which is two sepperate items. THe items you mentioned usually strike after child bearing and child raising age and do not effect the raising of offspring. Actually current theory is that we are suppose to die off after our children are raised so as not to compete with them. So using your line of thinking you should kill off anyone that lives past 60 - which would save the social security pyrimid scheam btw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-parental-licensing/136261.md?page=4)