# Would you support US/EU/NATO direct military action to defend Ukraine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359 "2022-03-02T17:54:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/61 "2022-03-03T22:11:09Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > that also begs the question - how would a really high-end US fighter like a F22/35 fare with “foreign” war infrastructure, (eg. russian origin. radar, that kind of thing) … or is a fighter plane pretty stand-alone…? How a Raptor or Lightning II would fare against Russian SAMs, radar, etc. is probably highly classified and none of us would know. That being said, if the Russians can’t even kept the aging and outdated Ukrainian air force out of the skies with their radar/SAMs, you have to feel pretty good about the F-22 or F-35’s chances. My best guess is, the F-22/-35s would operate with near impunity. Especially if they were only guarding mainly the skies over western/central Ukraine and didn’t really venture out east. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/62 "2022-03-03T22:12:12Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > that also begs the question - how would a really high-end US fighter like a F22/35 fare with “foreign” war infrastructure, (eg. russian origin. radar, that kind of thing) … or is a fighter plane pretty stand-alone…? > > anybody venture a guess? The F-22 and F-35 are designed on the basis of being part of an integrated “warfighting system”, with a major part of the exorbitant cost and delays being with the software and integration into the “data fusion” system > **[F-35 Data Fusion: How the Smartest Fighter Shares What it Sees - Avionics...](https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/09/04/f-35-data-fusion/)** > > The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II’s calling card is being a mobile sensor package that can the effectiveness of an entire fleet — an entire military front — by sharing \[…\] An F-22 on its own is not really all that more capable than a modernized fourth generation fighter like the Su-27 upgrades, and the F-35 is kind of a nightmare to keep functioning without modern logistics that were supposed to make it easier to maintain but instead have limited flight availability. The advantages of ‘stealth’ design features should theoretically make these aircraft more survivable but that has yet to be tested in a real world conflict. ‘Gifting’ the Ukranian Air Force advanced fifth generation fighters without extensive logistical support, sophisticated data integration systems, and a lot of training is one step above calling up Tony Stark to suit up as the Iron Man on the scale of hopeful pleading. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/63 "2022-03-03T23:09:11Z")
I agree with Not\_what\_you\_d\_expect and Velocity’s post with David Rothkopf’s piece. I guess one big problem is that nobody can accurately predict what Putin will or won’t do with sufficient provocation. Russia has threatened over Sweden’s and Finland’s thoughts on joining NATO; are we supposed to refuse their entry should they ask for it? If Russia takes Ukraine and then threatens the west if we don’t let them waltz into a NATO country, do we let them? And if the West’s only intervention is the provision of materiel then we could be doing this for years while the population of Ukraine suffers in ways that many of us couldn’t possibly imagine. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/64 "2022-03-03T23:09:34Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Pakistan and India have been going at it for a while, with border skirmishes, right? Both are nuclear powered, I believe. Also China and India, along the [Line of Actual Control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_Actual_Control). Of course, they keep things from getting too hot there by limiting troops on both sides to handheld blunt weapons only - no firearms allowed. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Germany, for example, probably has fairly good standing to go in there. Want another Great Patriotic War, tovarisch? Heck, one of Putin’s claimed war aims here was “denazification” - the last thing NATO wants do to is put Germans in Ukraine for the third time in 105 years with Putin’s internal propaganda network intact. Though I do agree with you that the Russian soldiers in the field need to be targets of counterpropaganda as much as possible. Conscripts generally don’t do well in imperialist wars of choice. > [@Velocity](#): > > Despite all the early success of the Ukrainians, the Russians are slowly encircling them in the field and closing the pincer. Every Russian rifle squad that has to garrison some road junction in the Donbas boonies is one that can’t participate at the front lines. At some point, the Russian Army is going to run out of either men or logistics. > [@Procrustus](#): > > I keep thinking about FDR’s promises to keep us out of WWII. He sent aid to Great Britain, akin to what we’re doing for Ukraine. And protected that aid at sea, when Britain’s capabilities to do themselves were stretched to the limit, arguably violating the Neutrality Act and laws of war to do so. Missions tend to creep. > [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > That convoy being stalled is very indicative of the state of affairs. Yes. It’s hard enough to prioritize military preparedness in a democracy; in an autocratic kleptocracy, it gets really hard. Given that there are some indications that Russian troops were surprised to be given the “go” order, it may be that the heightened readiness normally associated with the runup to war was itself being faked by the troops on the ground. And, to answer the OP: no direct military action, but as much logistics, materiel and intelligence aid as possible. In the end, this is a Ukrainian fight. Russian military doctrine holds that nuclear weapons may be used first if the existence of the state is threatened. Ukraine does not threaten the existence of the Russian state, but bringing in NATO to defend Ukraine, even through conventional means, likely would. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/65 "2022-03-03T23:15:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The F-22 and F-35 are designed on the basis of being part of an integrated “warfighting system”, with a major part of the exorbitant cost and delays being with the software and integration into the “data fusion” system Exactly. And all this leaves aside the fact that the US is highly unlikely (in the extreme) to loan or give Ukraine the F-35…the F-22 we don’t even export (or didn’t when we were producing it) to even our closest allies. Just not going to happen, and it wouldn’t help them in any case. What I think the plan was (before it fell apart) was for countries like Poland, with old Soviet style aircraft (upgraded) to give Ukraine those (which they are familiar with already) to get a discount on modern US or European aircraft in exchange. Not sure why that deal fell through…I only read about it in passing. But it was never to try and send front line US (or European) aircraft, as without the lead time to train on it and the infrastructure to support it the aircraft wouldn’t be very useful, if at all, to the Ukrainians. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/66 "2022-03-04T01:30:35Z")
You misunderstood me: I did NOT mean to ask how a f-22 would fare AGAINST russian-origin radar, but along russian-origin radar, as used by the Ukr. The scenario we are debating is the US “gifting” the Ukr. a F22 (with retired pilot) … how would the F-22 integrate with existing Ukrainian war hardware (which I understand to be of russian origin)? or are there no “interfaces” with long range radar units, etc…or is it pretty much “stand-alone”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/67 "2022-03-04T01:50:14Z")
Oh, my bad. Well, Idk…I am no electronic-warfare expert. Maybe **RickJay** would know. I would guess that there would be little to no compatibility between a Raptor and Ukrainian radars, but that either the Raptor could prowl about in the skies using its own AESA radar (which is hard for an enemy to detect,) or it would have American AWACS support loitering in Polish or Romanian skies near the border. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/68 "2022-03-04T02:25:18Z")
I have also seen the idea of gifting America’s soon-to-be-decommissoned A-10s to Ukraine and there is a part of me that loves that idea. This is what the Warthog was built for and Putin could use a lesson in how to properly go ugly early. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/69 "2022-03-04T02:41:15Z")
Problem is, by the time the Ukrainian pilots were trained on that new unfamiliar type, the war would probably be over. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/70 "2022-03-04T03:13:54Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > For a rational actor, nukes would only be viable when your very existence is in doubt The question is who is “you” in this scenario? The nation of Russia, or Vladimir Putin as a person? The answer to this question is of vital importance to whether or not NATO should intervene in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/71 "2022-03-04T08:11:57Z")
But I think Western ideals are being undermined as a result of the Ukraine invasion. If Russia didn’t show that its a warmongering country Western Ideals could be allowed to flourish more than will now happen. In recent days its been announced that Germany will raise military spending to 2% GDP and Poland will increase theirs to 3% GDP. I’m sure there will be more examples to come where NATO countries increase spending on a new perceived threat. When countries are buying their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns they are not investing in Western ideals. That money could have been spend on healthcare, R&D, green energy, poverty reduction etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/72 "2022-03-04T08:39:08Z")
Those with more knowledge have made the argument that donating F-22’s/F-35’s isn’t realistic. However to the point about how they haven’t been tested in a real world conflict - well here could be an opportunity to do so if the challenges could be overcome. But my greater point is that if Western Countries donated the best _possible_ jets, helicopters, tanks, anti-air, drones etc. etc. as fast as possible in quantities as large as possible the war might end sooner - at least without it dragging out the [20 years US lawmakers are being warned about](https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010797/us-and-britain-reportedly-believe-the-ukraine-war-could-last-10-20). That leads to another counter to the argument about how it is useless to give Ukrainian pilots any new jets because the war would be over before they could learn how to fly a new aircraft. I don’t buy that argument - if Ukraine is doing that well then its pointless to have a thread discussing whether US/EU/NATO should direct military action to Ukraine. And in the short term I maintain that at least some Western military units could find an adequate number of qualified volunteers who would be interested in accepting a military discharge and then joining the Ukrainian Foreign Legion - especially if they get to keep using the advanced toys they been trained on. I note there is a meme about how A-10 Warthog pilots are bent on the 40 mile convoy that hasn’t been moving north of Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/73 "2022-03-04T11:23:26Z")
The shelling of a nuclear reactor is changing my mind. Military action may become essential. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/74 "2022-03-04T11:32:03Z")
you know the west (europe and USA) should use this “nuclear reactor pretext” to raise their rhetoric … **"We were committed to stand on the sidelines, but this whole nuclear-reactor-shelling situation has us completely reassess the situation and our level of future involvement"** just to get some kind of relative advantage out of that - and also have a “valid reason” to do “XXXX” (we didn’t want to, but we had to, because …) (if nothing else comes out of it, it is still the message of _dont bomb nuclear plants_) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/75 "2022-03-04T15:52:15Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > That leads to another counter to the argument about how it is useless to give Ukrainian pilots any new jets because the war would be over before they could learn how to fly a new aircraft. I am not a pilot, and I’d love to see people like LSLGuy come chip in in this thread, but AIUI, it’s not merely just being able to fly the fighter, you need to be able to fly it **well** - just like there’s a difference between a pianist who’s just learned the instrument and one who’s played it a long time. Even if the Ukrainian pilots figured out “OK, this button does this, that does that,” it is nowhere comparable to having a thousand flight hours in the aircraft and familiarity with every maneuver, plus fighting in training exercises in it. A beginner newbie Ukrainian who is flying an A-10 or whatever and hasn’t even gotten to 10 hours yet in the craft will probably not be much good against Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/76 "2022-03-04T15:54:06Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > The shelling of a nuclear reactor is changing my mind. > Military action may become essential. All I want for Christmas (290 days early) is a no-fly zone enforced by F-22s, who get their overdue kills, and B-2s smacking the convoy ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/77 "2022-03-04T15:55:52Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > But I think Western ideals are being undermined as a result of the Ukraine invasion. If Russia didn’t show that its a warmongering country Western Ideals could be allowed to flourish more than will now happen. That’s true enough, though we could debate what western ideals are. The reason I responded in the previous post with what I did is it seemed you were taking too much credit…and blame…for what is going on in Ukraine. Yes, this is an attack on the western ideal of true sovereignty of a nation-state…but it’s not our fault. Nor is it Ukraine’s fault. It’s Russia’s fault. And Ukraine isn’t fighting and dying for you…for us…in the west. It’s fighting and dying for itself. It’s not fighting and dying so Germans could get healthcare instead of tanks, etc, it’s fighting for itself and what we can do is support them and give them what aid we can so that their fight is meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/78 "2022-03-04T16:21:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > All I want for Christmas (290 days early) is a no-fly zone enforced by F-22s, who get their overdue kills, and B-2s smacking the convoy Do you mind if your New Year’s toast is [“We’ll Meet Again”](https://youtu.be/s4VlruVG81w)? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/79 "2022-03-04T17:00:46Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > Those with more knowledge have made the argument that donating F-22’s/F-35’s isn’t realistic. > However to the point about how they haven’t been tested in a real world conflict - well here could be an opportunity to do so if the challenges could be overcome. “Testing in a real world conflict” cuts both ways, as it also gives enemy forces plenty of opportunity to analyze, adjust, test and refine tactics accordingly. Sometimes it’s better just to keep your cards hidden until they are absolutely needed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359/80 "2022-03-04T17:34:49Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > I agree with Not\_what\_you\_d\_expect and Velocity’s post with David Rothkopf’s piece. I guess one big problem is that nobody can accurately predict what Putin will or won’t do with sufficient provocation. Russia has threatened over Sweden’s and Finland’s thoughts on joining NATO; are we supposed to refuse their entry should they ask for it? > > If Russia takes Ukraine and then threatens the west if we don’t let them waltz into a NATO country, do we let them? A big problem is when nations act in unpredictable ways. Would fighting a war over an invasion of a NATO country have high costs? Yes. Would using nuclear weapons to defend a NATO ally if it came to that be an extremely high cost? Very much yes. But by making it clear that the United States would use its military strength, including nuclear weapons, to defend a NATO ally, we make Russia aware of the consequences for attacking a NATO country. And the awareness of those consequences is a big factor in Russia choosing not to invade any NATO countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-support-us-eu-nato-direct-military-action-to-defend-ukraine/960359.md?page=5)