# Would you tell this lie to help an impoverished loved one? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061 "2016-06-22T17:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/21 "2016-06-22T23:46:13Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Is it (selling the house) really, though? The house’s value is not included when determining her eligibility for benefits such as food stamps. If she sold it, the cash WOULD be considered. She’s got to have a place to live, and depending on the house’s condition and local rents, it might be cheaper in the long run to stay put. Health insurance is also very very spendy. I’m guessing the house isn’t worth that much, and between insurance, rent etc. the proceeds would be gone within a year or two. She’s already paying property tax and utilities, and often utilities for a house will be far higher than for a small apartment. The proceeds of the house are to give Jean some breathing room to get her career going and back on her feet. I agree it’s not an optimal solution but if you can’t even come across the $80 to get treated for bad vision and insane blood pressure, not to mention she doesn’t have a car to get to work anymore, it’s kinda silly to ignore what’s probably her largest asset. A HELOC might be better since she keeps the house that way, but it would depend on her situation. Honestly, Jean doesn’t have a good option and a bunch of bad options. She has a bunch of bad options, some of which are less bad than others. Having to sell your house is a bad option, but it’s a better option than dying of some malady that you can’t afford to get treated. EDIT: on re-reading, **dracoi** makes a good point about medicaid and house value. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/22 "2016-06-22T23:46:17Z")
Sure, why not. It’s now 2016, and signing the note in 2007 didn’t get me in trouble the first time, so I’d do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/23 "2016-06-22T23:58:11Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > I would give her the money or nothing. Asking me to commit medicaid fraud over a petty sum to spare her feelings is unreasonable. I’m not sure where you’re getting the “spare her feelings” bit from. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/24 "2016-06-23T00:19:44Z")
If she’s getting food stamps her EBT card should satisfy most proof of income requirements. If she’s not getting stamps, she probably could. I agree with **Mama Zappa** about not selling the house. If she does that, the only real asset she has will be gone forever, and whatever money she gets from it will be gone soon, leaving her with nothing…and needing a place to live. She might want to consider renting a room in her house to a student. Memphis has a university, and I think they have a law and possibly a medical school, maybe other graduate programs. Nothing against undergrads, but a grad student is more likely to be quiet/responsible, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/25 "2016-06-23T00:31:50Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If she’s getting food stamps her EBT card should satisfy most proof of income requirements. If she’s not getting stamps, she probably could. > > I agree with **Mama Zappa** about not selling the house. If she does that, the only real asset she has will be gone forever, and whatever money she gets from it will be gone soon, leaving her with nothing…and needing a place to live. > > She might want to consider renting a room in her house to a student. Memphis has a university, and I think they have a law and possibly a medical school, maybe other graduate programs. Nothing against undergrads, but a grad student is more likely to be quiet/responsible, etc. The University of Memphis ha a law school, but not medical. The University of Tennessee at Memphis has a medical school, but no law. Christian Brothers Uiversity has, well, the word “university” in its name. Rhodes College has high numbes of hot chicks who end up in pharma sales. LeMoyne-Owen has an even higher proportion of hot chicks but they don’t get the pharma jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/26 "2016-06-23T03:06:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If I’m lying n the tub, unconscious and with the water about to rise over my face, because I slipped on the tile and hit my head, the long-term solution is to place a rnner in the term that has better traction, preventing a recurrence. But I need the short-term solution a hell of a lot more. But you’re changing the hypothetical here. First, you’re talking about lying at the doctor’s office, now you’re talking about lying in the tub. I think at lot of posters in this thread might change their opinions about lying if it’s in the tub as opposed to at the office. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/27 "2016-06-23T03:31:45Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But you’re changing the hypothetical here. First, you’re talking about lying at the doctor’s office, now you’re talking about lying in the tub. I think at lot of posters in this thread might change their opinions about lying if it’s in the tub as opposed to at the office. I don’t understand the dissent in this thread. Jean has an immediate and probably very serious medical condition and very little money. She obviously qualifies for the (almost) free clinic program. The only thing she lacks is the paperwork to prove it because of a Catch-22. The receptionist is only suggesting an easy way around the obviously bullshit bureaucracy of the situation yet people are rejecting it as a terrible moral dilemma for themselves and I don’t believe it for a second. I have to be extremely honest in my job as well but exceptions happen and I can hint how people can get around the rules when the situation warrants it when they are obviously not working as intended. It is a close family member as well, not just a casual friend. I would do a lot more than that for a true family member if they really needed it including a felony, not just writing some bullshit down on a piece of paper. I guess everyone is in the exact same category in most of your mind’s but they are not in mine at all. If some of you were as painfully honest as you claim, I am not sure how you get through life without being blocked by every incoherent or unfair bureaucratic rule out there. It is probably the same group that blocks traffic for miles on the interstate because, hey, the speed limit is a rule. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/28 "2016-06-23T05:16:41Z")
Team Lie Like A Rug. The organisation’s position appears to be “if you’re kinda struggling but have someone to support you then - hey! Cheap services! But if you’re REALLY struggling and have NOBODY to help- nothing for you.” That’s an asinine position and they’ve forfeited their right to accuracy from me. She’s a low income person, so she has a right to low income services. I’m not helping her get something she _doesn’t_ have a right to ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/29 "2016-06-23T05:53:26Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > $80 is already ridiculously cheap. If I need to pay the $60 myself, I’ll do that before I put something untrue in writing. > > A lot of people are acting like the house in Memphis must be worth a lot of money, but I happen to have some clients who own real estate in that area and it wouldn’t surprise me if the market value of Jean’s house is around $30,000. Maybe much less if it hasn’t been maintained well; and not likely to be more than about double even if it’s nice. That kind of money can be be eaten up quickly by health insurance. > > Of course, if she has such low income, then she should qualify for FREE health insurance thanks to Obamacare programs. Sorry, it’s 2007. If she wants Obamacare, she needs to live in Massachusetts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/30 "2016-06-23T07:25:38Z")
As for the solution to the dilemma at hand, I won’t rule out deception entirely, but this is how I’d go about it (I presume I’m the Sharon person here). I tell Jean that I’ll pick up the tab today and help her with achieving a clean proof-of-income status after this crisis has been dealt with. If this is unacceptable to Jean, such that she threatens to leave without receiving medical care, I will consent to participate in the ruse. However, once she is in the examination room, I will tell the receptionist to cancel that form, and pay for the visit myself. Later, I’ll confess what I did, beg her forgiveness, and help her get her paperwork ducks in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/31 "2016-06-23T07:40:23Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I guess I will be the first to admit that I wouldn’t hesitate to vouch (lie) for her. The receptionist is just sharing a tip on how to deal with bureaucratic rules that aren’t meant to stop people like Jean from getting reduced price care anyway. Jean just doesn’t have the paperwork to prove it. If the secretary is willing to get them to lie, then she should be willing to lie, too. She could simply lie about having seen the proper documentation. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/32 "2016-06-23T17:53:10Z")
I wouldn’t be willing to lie, especially since we’re apparently both apprehensive about it. That’s how I am anyway, but it’s reinforced by the characters in the hypothetical. I would, however, offer to pick up the difference between what Jean expected to pay, and what she is being charged. Since she should only be paying the $20 anyway, and it’s only bureaucratic red tape that’s preventing her, I would hope that Jean would be able to accept the favor without compromising her pride. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/33 "2016-06-23T18:18:32Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > If the secretary is willing to get them to lie, then she should be willing to lie, too. She could simply lie about having seen the proper documentation. Some agencies require eligibility documents to be copied for the file. ---
**Author:** ![jayrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jayrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayrey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/34 "2016-06-23T19:41:38Z")
I’m not comfortable with lying in this situation so I would pony up the $80 so Jean could address the immediate health problem. Otherwise, she’s gonna keel over from a massive stroke and we’ll both have bigger problems to address. After her blood pressure was under control, I’d try to help Jean with a long-term solution. As for Jean seling the house as one of those possible solutions, I’d need a ot more info than provided in the OP to make that call. Skald, do you need me to resend that fabulous gluten-free chocolate chip cookie recipe? Apparently, you lost it 'cuz you haven’t made any for me yet. I’m waiting, and not patiently. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/35 "2016-06-23T19:46:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sorry, it’s 2007. If she wants Obamacare, she needs to live in Massachusetts. 😃 Oops, I missed that part of the OP. My answer is basically the same, less the part about qualifying for free health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/36 "2016-06-23T19:51:07Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > If some of you were as painfully honest as you claim, I am not sure how you get through life without being blocked by every incoherent or unfair bureaucratic rule out there. It is probably the same group that blocks traffic for miles on the interstate because, hey, the speed limit is a rule. Yesterday, I stood at a crosswalk with no traffic in sight in either direction until the little pedestrian walk light came on. I consider it two minutes well-wasted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/37 "2016-06-24T00:55:09Z")
I cannot lie. Even if I wanted to lie, I am fucking terrible at it and my guilt gnaws at me until I confess. I’m also terrified of breaking the law. I’d just pay for whatever care she needed. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/38 "2016-06-24T01:52:15Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I cannot lie. See, I _can_, and very well. But I put that behind me over twenty years ago. For me, it’s all or none. I’d rather deal with the negatives that occasionally pop up from refusing to lie, than being a lying piece of shit scumbag, because for me there’s no middle of the road, just berms. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/39 "2016-06-24T21:13:44Z")
Posted without reading other responses: Neither person should lie. Lying on forms is always a bad idea, especially where (as here) it just might impose liability where none was expected or intended. If Sharon wants to lend or give Jean money, a lot or a little, to help with medical expenses, that’s very nice of her and I would encourage it, but she shouldn’t lie. Honesty really is the best policy, even if it costs you (or a beloved cousin) more. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/40 "2016-06-24T21:59:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Posted without reading other responses: > > Neither person should lie. Lying on forms is always a bad idea, especially where (as here) it just might impose liability where none was expected or intended. If Sharon wants to lend or give Jean money, a lot or a little, to help with medical expenses, that’s very nice of her and I would encourage it, but she shouldn’t lie. Honesty really is the best policy, even if it costs you (or a beloved cousin) more. Anarion, does your ethical calculus change if Sharon’s situation is different? Suppose rather than a well-to-do pharma rep who buys a new car every other year, she is a retail drone who just got her hours cut, and rather than giving Jean a ride in her BMW, Sharon skipped lunch hte previous day so she’d have the cash to pay their bus fares to and from the clinic? Suppose that she doesn’t have $80 or even $60 to spare? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061.md?page=3)