# Would you tell this lie to help an impoverished loved one? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061 "2016-06-22T17:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/41 "2016-06-24T23:21:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anarion, does your ethical calculus change if Sharon’s situation is different? Suppose rather than a well-to-do pharma rep who buys a new car every other year, she is a retail drone who just got her hours cut, and rather than giving Jean a ride in her BMW, Sharon skipped lunch hte previous day so she’d have the cash to pay their bus fares to and from the clinic? Suppose that she doesn’t have $80 or even $60 to spare? Again, how does saying you live at someone else’s house get you all these discounts at the doctors? Anyway, why doesn’t Jean just write the note herself, and then sign as Sharon? That way, only one person is lying. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/42 "2016-06-24T23:59:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Again, how does saying you live at someone else’s house get you all these discounts at the doctors? > > Anyway, why doesn’t Jean just write the note herself, and then sign as Sharon? That way, only one person is lying. I can only tell you the way it was for me over a decade ago, when I’d lost my good corproate job – the kind of job I ascribed to Sharon in the OP – and insurance. I got a new job but wasn’t making much money, and my benefits hadn’t kicked in, when I wrecked my truck. Not long after that I needed medical care for a chronic condition and was having trouble paying for it. The receptionist at the clinic I went to asked me if anyone had driven me there, making the suggestion the receptionist in the OP did. I do not know this for certain, but I think her concern was that, since my signature was already on file from signing in, it was best to have somebody else make that claim. ETA: I think – but may be wrong, it was a long time ago – that she first asked me if I were on food stamps. I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/43 "2016-06-25T01:08:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I can only tell you the way it was for me over a decade ago, when I’d lost my good corproate job – the kind of job I ascribed to Sharon in the OP – and insurance. I got a new job but wasn’t making much money, and my benefits hadn’t kicked in, when I wrecked my truck. Not long after that I needed medical care for a chronic condition and was having trouble paying for it. The receptionist at the clinic I went to asked me if anyone had driven me there, making the suggestion the receptionist in the OP did. I do not know this for certain, but I think her concern was that, since my signature was already on file from signing in, it was best to have somebody else make that claim. > ETA: I think – but may be wrong, it was a long time ago – that she first asked me if I were on food stamps. I dunno. Fair enough. If I was “Jean” though, I would just forge the paper if I knew that nobody was checking beyond the receptionist anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/44 "2016-06-25T01:20:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair enough. If I was “Jean” though, I would just forge the paper if I knew that nobody was checking beyond the receptionist anyway. Ah, but Jean DOESN’T know that. The person who informed Jean that claiming to be the resident dependent of another person will get her the discount she desperately needs is also the person who advised her to have another person sign the document. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/45 "2016-06-25T01:24:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Ah, but Jean DOESN’T know that. The person who informed Jean that claiming to be the resident dependent of another person will get her the discount she desperately needs is also the person who advised her to have another person sign the document. Ok, that’s when Jean just says, ok we will be back, we have to get a paper and whatnot (or any excuse). And then come back with a signed paper (with left hand or whatever if worried that someone will compare signatures) Did she have to write the statement there right in front of the receptionist? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/46 "2016-06-25T01:51:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ok, that’s when Jean just says, ok we will be back, we have to get a paper and whatnot (or any excuse). And then come back with a signed paper (with left hand or whatever if worried that someone will compare signatures) > > Did she have to write the statement there right in front of the receptionist? I didn’t write a paper. Apart from being too stinking proud, I didn’t have anybody to sign for me, having biked there. But I think Jean would be risking her appointment if she left and came back. This is not the way I thought the thread would go, by the way. I think that, in the scenario described in the OP, Sharon should pay for the appointment herself, then then help Jean find a better option. That might be helping her get her documentation together; that might be finding another clinic (which wouldn’t be as simple as some people have suggested). If she really loves Jean, that might mean making the claim literally true–letting Jean move into Sharon’s appointment. In the alternate scenario I described in replaying to **Elendil’s Heir-** -where Sharon is impoverished herself, only slightly better off than Jean – I’d say go ahead and tell the white lie. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/47 "2016-06-25T02:14:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I didn’t write a paper. Apart from being too stinking proud, I didn’t have anybody to sign for me, having biked there. But I think Jean would be risking her appointment if she left and came back. I didn’t mean leave the office or whatever, just go to the bathroom or something. > [@](#): > > This is not the way I thought the thread would go, by the way. I think that, in the scenario described in the OP, Sharon should pay for the appointment herself, then then help Jean find a better option. Yes, I think that too. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/48 "2016-06-25T02:22:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I didn’t mean leave the office or whatever, just go to the bathroom or something. > . It’s been a long time obviously, but i don’t think the receptionist in the real-life incident cared much. She was just advising me on how to get around the red tape. I’m really surprised at the persons who would narc on the receptionist, but I’m gonna assume they were being sarcastic. How getting her fired (or getting the clinic in trouble) would help anyone beyond me. Certainly it wouldn’t help Sharon help Jean in either the short or the long term. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/49 "2016-06-25T02:27:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anarion, does your ethical calculus change if Sharon’s situation is different? Suppose rather than a well-to-do pharma rep who buys a new car every other year, she is a retail drone who just got her hours cut, and rather than giving Jean a ride in her BMW, Sharon skipped lunch hte previous day so she’d have the cash to pay their bus fares to and from the clinic? Suppose that she doesn’t have $80 or even $60 to spare? I’m not Anarion, I’m just me. And no, she still shouldn’t lie in that revised hypo. If she can’t help now due to being impoverished, she’s not going to be able to afford a good lawyer when/if the Feds come after her for fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/50 "2016-06-25T03:49:10Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m not Anarion, Yeah, but you get all Teleri when I call you Isildur. > [@](#): > > I’m just me. And no, she still shouldn’t lie in that revised hypo. If she can’t help now due to being impoverished, she’s not going to be able to afford a good lawyer when/if the Feds come after her for fraud. Oh, right, the law. You care about shit like that. As I am still wearing the Evil!Skald helmet I confiscated from **kayaker** , I obviously don’t. (Of course, Evil!Skald would have taken Jean to his own doctors, then robbed a bank to make up the expense, and finally shot several passersby lest Ms. Oswald claim he had turned good.) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/51 "2016-06-25T13:59:41Z")
That handwritten note doesn’t only change the price of the visit from $80 to $20, it also covers blood tests and allows access to a reduced rate for meds, right? So handing over 60 bucks isn’t really a good short term solution - Jean needs more money for the blood tests and ongoing prescription costs. I’d write the note, in all likelihood. It’s family, and it’s not a question of convincing her to accept $60. But I’d then sit down with her to figure out a better path forward to get her covered. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/52 "2016-06-25T15:27:08Z")
**raventhief** , as always, stole my reply. Somethings end up being more important than my own morality. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/53 "2016-06-25T15:49:16Z")
I would take Jean to the nearest emergency department attached to a not-for-profit hospital. Visual impairment with a BP that high in a person who hasn’t seen a doctor in years is not something that should safely be treated in a clinic, anyhow. It needs to be lowered with IV vasopressors slowly so that her brain doesn’t fall through her skullhole, while she’s on a cardiac monitor to make sure her heart keeps its rhythm. Plus, at a not-for-profit hospital, there’s going to be a medical social worker experienced in getting people on Medicaid and/or navigating the process for charity care. Better medical treatment, better financial assistance, and no ethical quandaries. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/54 "2016-06-25T16:19:46Z")
I don’t much care for people like Jean. Willful martyrs. Look, we humans are a tribal bunch. If you’re not willing to accept help from a loved one because you’re too “proud” than you’re just doing humanity wrong. And never mind the fact that not only is Jean willing to accept help from social programs (i.e. complete strangers), she’s also willing to commit fraud against those very strangers she seeks help from. I would pay the $80 and pay for any meds she needs. And if she gives me any shit about it, she can fuck right off because who needs that sort of emotional drama in their lifw? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/55 "2016-06-26T02:32:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Yeah, but you get all Teleri when I call you Isildur… Because Isildur was a moron. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > …Oh, right, the law. You care about shit like that. As I am still wearing the Evil!Skald helmet I confiscated from **kayaker** , I obviously don’t… Obviously. But the women in the OP don’t appear to be evil, and, like me, probably have a not-unreasonable aversion to being prosecuted for healthcare fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/56 "2016-06-26T02:54:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Because Isildur was a moron. . Isildur saved the sapling of the White Tree, Noldo! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/57 "2016-06-26T03:05:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Isildur saved the sapling of the White Tree, Noldo! I’ll give him that. His later souvenir-collecting decisions left something to be desired, though. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061/58 "2016-06-26T03:25:52Z")
I probably would – I mean, my first choice would be to pay for the appointment as well as fund the on-going costs (combined with continuing to investigate for a better option overall to manage the on-going costs), but let’s say Jean is pitching a fit or something that is delaying getting her immediate medical attention. But, I would also come out swinging if I were called on it. “Hell YES I wrote that note because what kind of clinic encourages people to do that in order to receive care at a rate aligned with their ability to pay? And I would write it AGAIN.” What are they going to do? And I suspect it’s more of a thing that comes up if the clinic is owed money and they need someone to come after. Since I am actually planning to pay, they’re not going to be looking for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-tell-this-lie-to-help-an-impoverished-loved-one/758061.md?page=2)