# Would you try to rationalize it or would you start to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2001, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165 "2001-05-03T02:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/21 "2001-05-03T16:21:13Z")
Well, andros, I’m no warrior, but I hope I would at least have the guts to die trying and go down fighting. Sure, even the heroes in Valhalla are doomed, but better to fight alongside the Allfather and the Aesir against the Trickster and the giants than to wind up in Niflheim helplessly awaiting the doom of all gods and men. * * * _ **"They’ll take my battle-axe when they pry it from my cold, dead hand"** _ ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/22 "2001-05-03T16:23:48Z")
Damn! (So to speak.) I had a quite lengthy, very funny and unbearably logical post all set to go, and on preview I see **andros** and **Scylla** ’s offerings and **Some Guy** ’s pithy analysis. Screw it. Here’s the summation, anyway: I think as a [weak atheist](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html#atheisms), I’d have to change my opinion on _the likelihood_ of the Christian God, but I see nothing in the scenario that would force me to change either my moral code or preferred epistemology. If the mere suggestion of a threat of eternal torment were enough to make me believe in the literal truth of the latest English translation of the Bible, I’d be decorating my vehicle with fish emblems and “In Case of the Rapture…” bumper stickers already. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/23 "2001-05-03T16:24:43Z")
> [@](#): > > If you consider yourself a true servant of the Aesir and Vanir, and had not sought shelter under the branches of Yggdrasil, would you give up or try to do things differently? The only drawback is that in the Ragnarok scenario, _everybody_ dies–gods, men, ice giants, and assorted beings. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/24 "2001-05-03T16:24:50Z")
😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/25 "2001-05-03T16:34:14Z")
Apparently, it’s that time of the month and we need another good Fundamentalist Christian preaching to us again. \*\*JerseyDiamond wrote: If millions of people disappeared, would that make you believe? If the 2 witnesses just appeared out of the air and started preaching, and all languages could understand them, would you believe? If the book of Revelation started to happen, (plagues upon plagues) would that still not convince you to change?\*\* **JerseyDiamond** , you’re missing an important point with regard to the beliefs of many non-Christians. It isn’t that I don’t believe the J/C/I God doesn’t exist. I’m sure He does. What you seem to fail to realise is that we have a choice in who we can follow or worship. I have choosen to specifically not follow the J/C/I god and His rules. But just because I don’t follow them doesn’t mean they’re wrong or invalid. You follow them and apparently get a great deal of satisfaction from doing so. More power to you, I say. But I’ve chosen a different Path, and I follow the rules of that Path. Since I don’t follow His rules, I’m not governed by Him nor am I subject to His wrath or His prophecies. If the events of the Book of Revelation were to unfold in pretty much the same order as shown by the “Left Behind” books, it still wouldn’t change my faith. I’m secure and happy enough in my beliefs that I’m sure I’d be protect by my Gods from any of the ravages of your God and His “adversary.” ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/26 "2001-05-03T16:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > If millions of people disappeared, would that make you believe? Millions of people _do_ disappear, in places like Rwanda and Chile and elsewhere. This would not impress me. If they simply vanished out of their cars on the Garden State Parkway, sending unmanned cars careening into tollbooths, _then_ I’d be impressed. > [@](#): > > If the 2 witnesses just appeared out of the air and started preaching, and all languages could understand them, would you believe? That, I admit, would be pretty cool. I would certainly look for explanations, one of which might be because God made them do it. > [@](#): > > If the book of Revelation started to happen, (plagues upon plagues) would that still not convince you to change? Again, it would depend on how closely the plagues matched those predicted. Because right now, there _are_ plagues upon plagues. Floods in the midwest, locusts in Australia, sickness in Africa, whatever you want plaguewise I can find for you. But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that things started happening _exactly_ as described in Revelations. Heck yeah, I’d start to believe. I’m no dummy. The bigger question is whether I would _worship_ a God who did such things. So here’s my question to you: Honestly, would you respect and Love a God who did the stuff in Revelations? Because I think that would make Him kind of a dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/27 "2001-05-03T16:43:04Z")
\*\*goboy wrote: The only drawback is that in the Ragnarok scenario, everybody dies–gods, men, ice giants, and assorted beings.\*\* Not precisely. Baldur will arise from Niflheim and start the world anew. Two humans (a man and woman) will surivive in the fallen limbs of the World Tree and go on to repopulate the world. Also, Odin’s children will survive and avenge his death. Thor’s children will also survive and pick up his hammer and carry on. There’s a fascinating book out; _The Worlds According to Loki_ which tells many of the Norse myths from Loki’s viewpoint, including Ragnarock and what happens afterwards. A good read, but you gotta be up on your Norse mythology to catch several of the references. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/28 "2001-05-03T17:24:39Z")
No big surprise that **Freyr** is the resident expert. 😉 Yup, Lif and Lifthrasir will take shelter under a branch of Yggdrasil, emerging to restore humanity, and Baldur will return to provide a force of peace and good in the world. Loki, Fenrir, and the Midgard serpent will be destroyed, yes, but a portion of hell will remain undamaged–Nastrond, the shores of the dead. And the dragon Nidhogg will continue to devour the dead. Ragnarok is death, destruction, and chaos–and it is rebirth, rebuilding, and reorder. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/29 "2001-05-03T17:59:13Z")
You are right. I should have recalled that the children of the gods survive–after all, Wagner alludes to the new world at the end of \* Die Gotterdammerung\*. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/30 "2001-05-03T18:05:31Z")
Mekhazzio: wouldn’t be much of a party with all that judgemnt going on , such as half the oceans turning to blood. I believe the rapture is coming, and soon. I hope to make it, if not, will ask God for forgiveness and wait 7 years. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/31 "2001-05-03T18:25:32Z")
Half the oceans turning to blood is a judgement? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/32 "2001-05-03T18:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*Half the oceans turning to blood is a judgement? \*\* Well, It sure wouldn’t be a sign of approval. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/33 "2001-05-03T18:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **… locusts in Australia** Oh _shit!_ ::starts filling her suitcases with clothes:: > [@](#): > > \*\* … half the oceans turning to blood \*\* Oh _SHIT!_ ::throws clothes out of suitcases and stocks up on tampons instead:: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/34 "2001-05-03T19:09:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*Half the oceans turning to blood is a judgement? \*\* Naw, it’s just God getting her period again. _oh, I am SO going to HELL for that one!_ ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/35 "2001-05-03T20:36:15Z")
JD – If these things didn’t happen, how long would it take you to STOP believing? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/36 "2001-05-03T22:19:46Z")
JerseyDiamond wrote, in the OP: > [@](#): > > I know that many of you have read the ‘Left Behind’ series, if not, I know many people have read or at least know about the book of Revelation in the Bible, and I was wondering: > If millions of people disappeared, would that make you believe? Then goboy wrote: > [@](#): > > Well, if the events described in the Revelation of Saint John happened–the Rapture, the appearance of the Antichrist, being forced to take a mark on the right hand and forehead, the two witnesses popping up in Jerusalem–then only a very silly and/or stubborn atheist would refuse to believe. … Too bad for you two that the Rapture **isn’t mentioned** in Revelation! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/37 "2001-05-03T22:41:08Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by manhattan \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > If millions of people disappeared, would that make you believe? Millions of people _do_ disappear, in places like Rwanda and Chile and elsewhere. This would not impress me. If they simply vanished out of their cars on the Garden State Parkway, sending unmanned cars careening into tollbooths, _then_ I’d be impressed. Quite frankly, that would explain the traffic. I’d like to see the traffic signs on that one “CONGESTION BETWEEN EXITS 124-163 DUE TO APOCOLYPSE. NEW JERSEY STATE LAW REQUIRES USE OF HEADLIGHTS DURING RAINS OF FIRE.” Personally I think Famine and Pestilence got jobs taking tolls. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/38 "2001-05-03T23:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Badtz Maru** _ > > I’d believe super-advanced aliens with an interest in our mythology were playing some kind of trick on us. This, in fact, has already happened (or, rather, will in the 24th century) as chronicled on _Star Trek: The Next Generation._ Esprix ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/39 "2001-05-03T23:31:24Z")
tracer, I think most people take the rapture to mean the "you will be changed in the twinkling of an eye; two will be working in a field, one disappears verses. Most chrsitians believe a lifting up to Heaven before judgement will occur. See m.j. agee s web site. She say this Pentecost (May 28) Of course, she says every Pentecost since 1998. Back tomorrow(barring the rapture…) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/40 "2001-05-04T00:02:21Z")
vanilla wrote: > [@](#): > > tracer, > I think most people take the rapture to mean the "you will be changed in the twinkling of an eye; two will be working in a field, one disappears verses. Yep. But those verses ain’t in Revelation. The twinking-of-an-eye verse is 1 Corinthians 15:52, but it talks about everyone being “changed,” not Raptured. The closest thing to the Rapture itself is described in I Thessalonians 4:16-18, and that passage has the “dead in Christ” rising from their graves before they ascend to the clouds, which is distictly different from the picture of the Rature usually portrayed nowadays. There is no passage in the bible I know of that foretells anything like “two will be working in a field, one disappears”. That notion appears to have been invented out of whole cloth by 19th century theologian John Darby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165.md?page=3)