# Would you try to rationalize it or would you start to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2001, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165 "2001-05-03T02:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/41 "2001-05-04T01:04:08Z")
Er, tracer: [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1THES+4:16-17&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on): _“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”_ So, it does look like the conventional premillenialist view of the Rapture has some New Testament textual support here. Also, [Matthew 24:40](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:40&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on): _“Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/42 "2001-05-04T01:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by **Badtz Maru** _ > > > > I’d believe super-advanced aliens with an interest in our mythology were playing some kind of trick on us. > > This, in fact, has already happened (or, rather, will in the 24th century) as chronicled on _Star Trek: The Next Generation._ > > Esprix \*\* Your sci-fi powers are weak, Obi-Wan. **Some Guy** already mentioned this, plus he knew the name of the episode. 😃 Although you get extra points for acting like a fictional event will actually occur. IIRC, the last time this issue of “What would you do if it started coming true,” came up it was asked by **Wildest Bill**. Ragnarok was mentioned then too, and **WB** thought everyone was making it up. Remember? [For All Those Who Do Not Believe In GOD?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=36473) It was an amusing episode, of our lives! ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/43 "2001-05-04T01:34:23Z")
\*\*Dr. Lao wrote: IIRC, the last time this issue of “What would you do if it started coming true,” came up it was asked by Wildest Bill. Ragnarok was mentioned then too, and WB thought everyone was making it up. Remember?\*\* Thanks, **Dr. Lao** , I’ve been trying to find that thread or remember the title. Another issue we’ve hashed to death. I wonder if **JerseyDiamond** is going to come back and answer or respond to our points, or was this her swan song in GD? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/44 "2001-05-04T01:54:28Z")
If **Jersey D** does come back, I’d liek to talk to her about a god who went to Earth and had himself hung from a tree and stabbed in the side with a spear to help mankind. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/45 "2001-05-04T12:32:56Z")
Tracer, I’m an atheist, and you’re right, the Rapture isn’t mentioned in Revelation. I was just agreeing that if the mythological events in Christian eschatology started happening, it would be silly to deny God’s existence at that point. Once again, **I’m an atheist!** ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/46 "2001-05-04T12:37:52Z")
For the record, I am a soft atheist and I have read the Left Behind books. If the situation unfolded _as outlined in the series_, I would be forced to believe that the fundamentalist Christian God was real. The scenario in the books was _very_ unambiguous – in fact, that was one of the main problems with the series --the story would have been a good deal more compelling if the whole thing wasn’t so damned obvious. So, yes, I would “believe.” I wouldn’t, however, become a believer. Frankly, I’d rather roast in hell for an eternity than worship a nasty-natured, back-stabbing, tricky bastard of a God such as that outlined in these books. The sad thing about these books, is that they _could_ have been pretty good. It’s an interesting idea with a lot of possibilities. Unfortunately, Jenkins and LaHaye are more interested in agenda than literature. Jess – BTW, I critiqued the first couple of books [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=65287) I did finish the series (up to and including The Mark), but didn’t write any more critiques – there didn’t seem to be much interest or discussion generated by the ones I did, so I just bagged the project. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/47 "2001-05-04T13:57:45Z")
MEBuckner, thanks. tracer, you really gotta start reading your Bible there. You wouldn’t get very far in Bible Trivia… ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/48 "2001-05-04T14:26:29Z")
Isn’t the concept of the “rapture” fairly new in Christian theology, created by Wesley or Darby in the 1800’s? I’m pretty sure the concept has no historical basis in church history or teacings. How did the rapture concept evolve to where it is today? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/49 "2001-05-04T14:51:30Z")
\*\*Jess wrote: If the situation unfolded as outlined in the series, I would be forced to believe that the fundamentalist Christian God was real.\*\* I agree here, that the scariest scenario isn’t that the J/C/I God is real but the that Fundamentalist version of the J/C/I God is the truth. The “love me or I’ll condemn you to hell of eternity” version. That’s truly scarey ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/50 "2001-05-04T15:05:07Z")
**Jersey** , I know your motivation for posting questions like this, and I know that in your heart it is because you are concerned about people’s eternal destiny. But trust me, this method isn’t effective. The posters to the SDMB _on the whole_ are a logical, rational bunch, and aren’t likely to change their minds because of posts like this. If you want to make an impact, become part of this community. Post regularly, get involved in people’s lives, and demonstrate the love of the God you know. Remember that Jesus himself was asked by a very religious church member: > [@](#): > > Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Notice that Jesus said everything else hinges on these two commands. Notice that according to Jesus, loving your neighbor is every bit as important as loving God. I encourage you to put these words into practice in your life. 🙂 Remember that Jesus formed relationships with people. And trust me when I say that no one will be converted by one off, drive by postings. MH ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/51 "2001-05-04T15:25:59Z")
If I saw the Tooth Fairy petting the Easter Bunny on my lawn, I’d believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. If I saw the Rapture occurring, then yes, I’d believe in the Rapture. Where is the debate, please? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/52 "2001-05-04T19:10:05Z")
**MEBuckner** wrote: > [@](#): > > Er, tracer: > > [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1THES+4:16-17&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on): _“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”_ > > So, it does look like the conventional premillenialist view of the Rapture has some New Testament textual support here. Sorta. How come the “dead in Christ” rising just before the Rapture ain’t mentioned in book like _Left Behind_? > [@](#): > > Also, [Matthew 24:40](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:40&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on): _“Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.”_ Ah. I wasn’t aware of Matthew 24:40 et seq… But I gota wonder … if dead people were rising up out of the grave **before** the Rapture, wouldn’t the men in the field know about it? Why are they still out working from the field if Christian zombies are walking the land? Why is the disappearance of one of them presented as though it is a **totally** unexpected occurence, in light of the chronology of events that’s **supposed** to take place according to I Thess. 4:16-17? Meanwhile, back at the ranch, **goboy** wrote: > [@](#): > > Tracer, I’m an atheist, and you’re right, the Rapture isn’t mentioned in Revelation. I was just agreeing that if the mythological events in Christian eschatology started happening, it would be silly to deny God’s existence at that point. But it **would** be prudent to wonder whether everything was on the up-and-up, God-wise, if the pre-tribulation Rapture occurred the way it did in _Left Behind_, considering that the very existence of it in the bible is questionable. So if you **did** suddenly become a True Believer [TM] because millions of Christians mysteriously vanished, you might in fact be worshipping the wrong god! ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/53 "2001-05-04T22:37:36Z")
Well, hell, tracer, you’d think half the population of the Roman Empire would have converted on the spot after [this](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+27:50-53&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on): _“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/54 "2001-05-05T07:13:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mayor Quimby \* > \*\*Isn’t the concept of the “rapture” fairly new in Christian theology, created by Wesley or Darby in the 1800’s? I’m pretty sure the concept has no historical basis in church history or teacings. How did the rapture concept evolve to where it is today? \*\* According to [this](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/doomwish3.html), Edward Irving, Henry Drummond and John Nelson Darby came up with the idea in 1829. The [entire site](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html) is filled with fascinating information about all the apocalypses that weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/55 "2001-05-05T16:23:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, hell, tracer, you’d think half the population of the Roman Empire would have converted on the spot after this: You’d think so, but anyone who doesn’t already believe is apparently supposed to be some sort of flaming moron. “Even if you came back from the dead they wouldn’t believe,” and all that. Makes me wonder if the early Christians were wandering around, asking the Romans if they’d seen all those dead being pulled from their graves. “That never happened!” the Romans would say. The Christians then shake their heads sadly. “O Lord, you were right! See how they deny it! It is just more evidence that it is true.” For me, hell yeah, if I start seeing fundamentalist Christians bodily assumed into heaven, I’d consider their God a pretty good possibility. There’s always the chance of aliens with a copy of the Bible, though, or perhaps I’d’ve gone insane. I don’t think I’d insist it couldn’t possibly be God, though, as Lib says he would do were he an atheist. That seems to be shaping (or ignoring) the evidence to fit your beliefs, rather that believing the theory with the most support. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/56 "2001-05-05T18:45:10Z")
Actually, that’s not what I said, Gaudere. I wouldn’t say it _couldn’t_ be God. I would simply say that the possibility that it _is_ God is no more likely than some other, more materialist, possibility. It just wouldn’t impress me. As I told Jab, if you want to impress me, prove that A is A. I cannot imagine any sort of miracle — or even a whole host of miracles — that might convince me that God exists, unless, of course, you mean Thor or something. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/57 "2001-05-05T20:11:23Z")
It would definitely change my worldview, that’s for sure. If precisely the _Left Behind_ scenario, or a reasonable facsimile, occurred, and I was among those left behind, I would absolutely continue to preach the ethical POV I’ve been espousing. But the theological base would change: “Even though the world was created and is run by the Divine Weasel™, and we have absolutely no hope, the **right** thing to do is to continue loving one’s neighbor as oneself, respecting his dignity as a human being, and doing your best to care about each other. Sorry I was wrong about the nature of God; I just couldn’t accept the idea that He was that sort of petty, vindictive bastard.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/58 "2001-05-05T21:28:50Z")
Oh Poly, I think I owe you another dinner for that. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/59 "2001-05-06T00:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*If millions of people disappeared, would that make you believe? > If the 2 witnesses just appeared out of the air and started preaching, and all languages could understand them, would you believe? > If the book of Revelation started to happen, (plagues upon plagues) would that still not convince you to change? > > \*\* I would be convinced that the devil was trying to trick me into believing in his falsehoods as described in the Left Behind books. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2001, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165/60 "2001-05-06T03:26:01Z")
You know, JerseyDiamond, people don’t seem to _like_ your God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-try-to-rationalize-it-or-would-you-start-to-believe/64165.md?page=4)