I really hope that JerseyDiamond will be posting to this thread again. (Hmmm… it just occurred to me that, given the OP, that could be interpreted in more than one way…) Like I asked before, how does she explain the outpouring of wrath directed against her deity?
-Ben
Maybe she was assumed into Heaven?
WARNING: In Case of Rapture This Thread Will Be Unmanned!
Why would it be so silly? Which seems more likely to you - that the God of the Old and New Testaments is real, that his prophecies and myths are true and everything we have learned or believed that contradicts the Bible is false, or that some entity or group of entities that is more advanced than us is trying to manipulate us through recreations of some of our more popular myths? I can see one of those things happening and fitting in with a rational worldview based on observations as opposed to handed-down myths, and it has nothing to do with gods.
Heh, if a fleet of cloaked time-travelling Romulan vessels beamed up thousands of Christians, would you believe in transporter beams?
Let’s phrase things like this:
Q-Ben appears and tells you that the “Left Behind” scenario is coming true. You check nando.com and see that I am telling the truth. I then smirk at you a bit and challenge you to figure out whether it’s God or alien pranksters.
How would you decide? On what grounds would you make the determination?
One rational way to do it would be to see how much the “Left Behind” scenario was internally consistent. If the Rapture were taking place exactly as per the Bible, and if the Bible’s scenario and theology were internally consistent, that would make it possible that God was involved.
If, instead, you found that the “Left Behind” scenario was based on a misinterpretation of the NT, or that the NT was in turn based on a misinterpretation of the OT (not to name any names but aaaah… aaaahhhh… Matt-HEW! Gesundheit!) that would point to Romulans.
Moreover, suppose that various Christian sects had different interpretations of Revelations that were all consistent with the Biblical account. (This is not the case, but bear with me.) The chances of Jenkins and LaHaye getting every detail right would be overwhelmingly unlikely, suggesting again that pranksters had chosen the most popular current interpretation and made it “come true.”
I have the uncomfortable feeling that JerseyDiamond might consider my rejection of pop culture in favor of an honest seeking after God’s true will to be “rationalization,” but let’s face it- substitute “Satan” for “Romulans” and you find that I’m only advocating that one carry out one’s Christian duty.
-Ben
First, nice job to all of you on mocking the OP and turning a sincere question into a Christian bash-fest.
If you’ve read the whole thread, then you can see that it’s full of “even if I saw it happening exactly the way the bible says, I still wouldn’t believe in God!!!” or some variation of that. So there’s at least one prophecy that has come true. People are so hostile towards the idea of the God of the Jews and Christians that you do get people following an Arthur Dent-ian “Even if you prove it to me, I still won’t believe it” theology.
Gaudere, Manny, and a few others: I’m impressed. Actually I’m kind of baffled at how few people on this board actually practice the openness to the facts that they profess. I’m surprised that you guys actually said you’d be open to the possibility of the Christian God’s existence if you saw events predicted in the bible actually happening that way.
I’ll answer the reverse question (would I give up my faith in God if presented with strong evidence that I was wrong), since somebody is bound to attack me with it. That’s hard to say, but I suppose the answer would have to be yes. To be honest, I don’t have any idea what it would take to convince me that my view of God is in error. It would have to be something totally contradictory to one of the prophecies in the bible that I understand well enough to say “wow, that’s not supposed to happen”. Something not happening isn’t good enough, because it’s easy to say it didn’t happen YET. I mean, look at how long it took for Israel to become a political State again. I’m sure for a thousand years people were saying “Look, Israel is not a nation, and there’s no way it can happen! The people are too spread out. Bible prophecy depends on that, so it can’t be true.” But a few centuries later, here it is.
Anyway, I’m starting to ramble, so I’ll quit now.
Oh lord! Not another “Persecuting the Christians” Rant.
Seriously, I think her argument was FLAWED. Big time.
Yes, if things started to happen as Revelation describes them (and I’m talking about angels with big branding irons and deformed sheep pawing wax off of scrolls, not wars and rumors of wars) I’d probably accept that the Christian god was real.
But that doesn’t mean I’d consider any omnipotent being who set things up the way they are to be worthy of my attention, let alone my worship. If the universe is set up the way the Bible states, your god is a bastard of the first order. And I’d rather burn in Hell for eternity than bow down before him. You might call this deadly Pride, but I call it personal integrity and the courage of my convictions.
jayjay
If we wait until after the Rapture to believe, haven’t we kind of missed the boat anyway? I was under the impression that it was like buying a lottery ticket - once the drawing has been held, there’s no point in jumping in. Or am I mistaken?
In any case, I think I’d hold out for Ragnarok as well. More drinking, and I’d get to wear that cool armored breastplate.
seawitch wrote:
Well, the authors of the Left Behind books obviously don’t agree with this interpretation. In their stories, the heroes are good Christians that weren’t good enough for the Rapture, but who, because they Saw the Signs and Reaffirmed Their Belief in Christ, will nevertheless get to go to Heaven when they die. They’ll just have to live through the Tribulation, which the Raptured Christians got to avoid.
Plus, you get swell movie and comic book titles like “Ragnarok and Roll”.
…bringing me to the point I forgot to make:
I think the Left Behind books in particular, and Tim LaHaye in general are a little too literal in their interpretation of the bible. And responses like this are just ridiculous. That’s like a literal creationist saying “Ok, show me a monkey whose tail is falling off and who is learning to engineer bridges and turning into a human, and I’ll believe in evolution.” It’s a patently ridiculous statement intended only to ridicule the other side and has no place in a legitimate debate.
You’re free to be as sarcastic as you like, but it seems obvious to me that that, for example, is clearly meant to be taken symbolically. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that there probably won’t be a giant sheep with a sword in its mouth walking around doing things.
On this, I’d say you’re free to feel any way you like about it. That’s what happens when you have a will of your own. It’s between you and God and not my problem. If He’s ok with it, then it’s none of my business. If not, then it’s still none of my business. It’s not my job to make you change. I just happen to feel that it’s not my job to judge God and the way He set things up. If I don’t believe that I’ll fall to my death by jumping off the GW Bridge, that doesn’t change the fact that I will. If I accept that it’s the way it is, but don’t think that’s the way it should be, then it still doesn’t change the consequences of walking off the bridge. And based on what I’ve seen and gone through during my 30 years, I’m every bit as certain that God is real and accurately described in the bible (at least as far as I’m able to understand) as I am that if I jump off the GWB I’ll fall and die.
Guinistasia, I’m sorry you lost your faith in God and the church, but that doesn’t give you a license to go around rolling your ‘enlightened’ eyes every time somebody says something you don’t agree with. If you have something useful to contribute to the conversation, we’d all love to hear it. If not, why the need to waste my bandwidth with snide remarks? You seem to be literate. You also are quite capable of mocking Christians who actually believe what they say and practice, so I assume you’re also able to spot it when you see it. So I’d suggest that you might read the thread again, since you seem to have missed what I was talking about the first time you read it.
Seawitch, according to my understanding, tracer’s post is correct.
Really? Well, this is GD, so let’s look or evidence of that assertion.
[Paraphrased, but not misquoted, AFACT. Digressions generally left out]
Would you believe?
Hastur: It’s a possibility.
Mekhazzio: I’d party! (n/a)
MEBucker: Yes
Rocket88: I think rational people would analyze the evidence before jumping to conclusions
Opus: Yes
Tris (Xian): I wouldn’t do anything different (n/a)
betenoir: I might think they’re right
Badtz Maru: Might be aliens
Ben: would you convert to Islam if the Islam end-of-times happened?
Morrison’s Lament: I’d convert the Islam if that happened. But the fundamentalist God would require a lot of alcohol for that.
Asmodean (Xian? I thought she was): If it happens like in the left behind, it would be a forgery (true, the LB books don’t appear to perfectly follow the bible). (likely n/a)
Libertarian (Xian): If I were an atheist, I wouldn’t believe. (n/a)
Degrance: I wish the fundies would diappear. (n/a)
goboy: Hell yeah, I’d believe.
Some Guy: Maybe. Might be aliens, though. Possible, but unlikely.
Xenophon: yes, I’d think the Xian God more likely.
Freyr (pagan): I beleive in (though do not follow) the Xian God already. But my Gods will protect me. (n/a)
manhattan: Heck yeah.
::random discussion of revelation, seas turning to blood, Ragnarok::
Jess: I’d believe
ElvisL1ves: yup.
tracer: better make sure you’re worhsipping the right God
Me: it’d be a decent possibilty, but check for insanity and/or aliens
Lib (Xain): Well, if I was an atheist, with enough evidence I’d believe in the existence of the petty Fundie God, but not my God. (n/a)
AcidKid: I think it’s be a trick by the devil.
Ben: gotta make sure it’s not aliens/Satan first.
jajay: yep
So, of yesses and possiblys from everyone who I do not know is a Xian already: Hastur, MEBuckner, OPus, betenoir, Morrison’s Lament, goboy, Some Guy, Xenophon, manhattan, Jess, ElvisL1ves, jayjay, me.
Rocket and Badtz and tracer and Ben bring up other possibilities and urge caution, but do not rule the Xian god out. AcidKid (unknown whether Xian or not) thinks a trick by the devil might be more likely.
So where, pray tell, are all the people in this thread who say “‘even if I saw it happening exactly the way the bible says, I still wouldn’t believe in God!!!’ or some variation of that”?
And a few of us who were just smartasses, Gaudere. 
Joe_Cool, you mentioned that ther revelation of John of Patmos is supposed to be taken figuratively.
Where do you draw the line? How do you determine what is literal prophecy and what is figurative?
And yet, there are many (JerseyDiamond included) who believe that the events of the end times as described in Left Behind WILL occur. Literally.
If the world goes to hell in a handcart, I won’t assume it’s god’s work. If there’s a nuclear war, I won’t assume it’s god’s work. If there’s a dictator somewhere sometime, I won’t assume it’s god’s work. If there’s a war in Israel, I won’t assume it’s god’s work.
If, OTOH, a load of people are bodily assumed into the sky, if the dead rise from their graves, if the seas turn to blood and the sky turns black, if the great trump is heard and the ranks of Michael’s angels mass for battle–in short, the supernatural and miraculous–then and only then will I begin to consider that John had anything going for him beyond a yen for funky mushrooms.
:shrug: I sure don’t see that as “bashing” christians. YMMV, of course.
No, I have NEVER lost my faith in God. I definitely believe in God. I do NOT believe that everything each religious leader says is true. I don’t believe any one religion has the monopoly on the truth. I believe God is so much more complex than anyone can understand-and therein lies the beauty-the mystery. I do NOT mock Christians. I only get angry when people insist on having a “Poor Christian Martyr-Me” complex. It’s annoying and overdone.
Jersey Diamond’s premise was flawed in many many ways. She has yet to come back and debate this further. So I am NOT knocking religion!! Did anyone else think I was mocking religion? I’m not!
For the record Gui I didn’t see ya mocking anything. heck were kinda in the same boat (faith without religion)
Sorry to kinda switch up the OP, but I am intrested on the postings about the Norse Mythology and end time stuff. I never knew any other religions besides Christianity and Islam had an End Times/New World/Serpent Defeated/ type of sceneraio. Are there any other religions with this beleif including older ones and are there any web links? It’s hecka compelling.
And as Elvis1Lives says,I don’t see much of a debate. I am a Christian as faith goes, but not religios. All of the fundamentalist and books such as Left behind series (which I gotta disagree,I actullay like the series a lot) are pointing to the fact you have to be a fundie to get raptured or even be saved. So if I wake up one day and my entire church is gone cept’ me, you bet I wion’t “struggle with sin” anymore.
I take it would be the same reaction as when someone drunk or high sobers up automatically during trouble I.E havign a gun pulled on them.
I think it would take more to make me believe, though not necessarily on such a grand scale. There is a short story, by David Brin I THINK (correct me if I’m wrong) about a die-hard atheist who refuses to believe in God, even after the rest of his family gets religion after a series of tragedies. In the end he witnesses a miracle that makes him change his mind. It was much more personal than millions of people vanishing around the world, but miraculous enough that I could see myself believing if I was in his place. I COULD rationalize it, maybe with extremely advanced technology and some means of mind-reading, but it would be a big stretch.
The way I see it, if some big series of ‘miracles’ happens that everybody in the world knows about, I can see a motivation for faking them. If I experienced a miracle that I alone witnessed that was obviously caused by something that new my innermost thoughts and was trying to help me in some way, I’d probably believe. Even if it wasn’t a ‘God’ per se, I’d respect whatever the source of it was.
Now, that would affect me. If I were an atheist, and witnessed a miracle that was perceived entirely subjectively, while everyone else stood around going, “Huh? We didn’t see that,” then I would begin to believe. But anything objectively verifiable would leave me searching for a rational explanation.
I dunno–If I see giant pink bunnies that no one else sees, I might go get my head checked out first, rather than start beleiving in giant pink bunnies.
**
Once again, we have a fundie saying that bashing fundie idiocy and fundie immorality equals bashing Jesus. Do you think Polycarp is a “real” Christian, or do you just consider him to be one of those fake pseudo-Christians? When he says he won’t bow to Jenkhovah, even if that means being sent to LaHayedes, does that mean he’s bashing the Almighty God, or does it mean that he has a hell of a lot more backbone than the average fundie?
**
I don’t recall seeing even a single person who said that, and Gaudere seems to have borne that out. Would you care to back it up or back it down? For that matter, would you care to apologize for your rather high-handed comments to Guin? If not, I don’t think you can complain about fundie bashing, what with you being a fundie and acting in such a bashworthy fashion.
**
So if you saw Norse mythology coming true, you wouldn’t believe- but you criticise the imaginary non-Christians who wouldn’t believe in Jenkhovah, even if the Left Behind books were to come true?
Can you name even a single prophecy which could be disproven in the manner you describe? It seems to me that most if not all of them say that particular events will happen. Ergo, they can only be disproven if those events don’t happen- in which case you can weasel that they haven’t happened yet.
-Ben