British – no Asian ancestry, no connections with Korea. I’m in the camp of “would find it fascinating”: I indeed would go on a tour there, if I could afford it. The “visiting Crazy Land” aspect would be interesting; I don’t have ethical scruples about travelling to places.
I had imagined till recently, that the US government forbade US citizens to visit North Korea, at any rate re tourism / recreation: was surprised to learn of the recent episode involving the unlucky 85-year-old military veteran. I assume that I was mistaken about the imagined ban.
You don’t have to speak the language. Tourists have government-sponsored “guides” with them at all times. The guides speak near-perfect English. Does this affect your decision?
Read what he said again. The U.S. doesn’t forbid visiting NK. NK frequently makes it difficult for Americans to visit, however.
Why would you visit a country where you can’t even talk to the locals (even if you knew the language)? As well, part of the money goes to the upkeep of Kim Jong-Un’s fat belly, not that NK makes much money from tourism. Visiting the country would be like visiting a really bad museum. I’d much rather visit a Communist country like Cuba as you can at least freely interact with the locals and go explore the island by yourself.
I was perhaps drawing wrong conclusions, from the thing of US citizens being officially forbidden to visit Cuba (unless – if I have things rightly – they can get special permission to do so, each case decided on its merits). Had in my head, the notion of a few other countries with which the USA is on bad terms – though short of there being a state of declared war – being “verboten” for US citizens. Maybe confusion with stuff from decades ago, or maybe just plain confusion…
I don’t think you’re mistaken about Cuba. Things seem to have shifted a bit, though. My aunt recently went there on a special tour to see Cuban artists. I don’t know if Joe Tourist can just hop a plane to go, but there are more options for Americans to get in.
On one hand I agree, but on the other I think you could pick up a lot from just seeing what you can see and observing what they do to try to shield you from the harsh realities. The efforts would be interesting in and of themselves. A large part of what we know about NK comes from people who have gone on these official tours. Robert Heinlein wrote a wonderful essay about his trip to the U.S.S.R. that demonstrates this approach. That said, I certainly understand why this factor might make you disinclined to go.
No thanks. I make it a point not to visit countries we’re officially at war with. (The Korean War ended with a cease-fire agreement, not a peace treaty.)
I have gathered that US citizens who want to go to Cuba, and can’t get an official OK to do so – can quietly sneak off there, flying from / to Canada or Mexico; and are pretty unlikely to get into trouble for doing same – the guardians of security have bigger and more acute worries…
I would love to go. I’ve been reading a TON about NK recently, books and white papers and other things (I’m basically working my way through the reference/bibliography section of Nothing to Envy). It’s morbidly fascinating to me to read about a country that is basically nothing but a giant personality cult. It’s like Jonestown, but with an actual army (a huge one, comparatively speaking). Part of me wants to see for myself some of the things that the books I’ve read are describing.
But I don’t think I could do it. I don’t want to feel that I’m contributing to the suffering in any way.
The idea is interesting in a theoretical sense, but I suspect I wouldn’t deal well with the food. If we’re looking at countries which have no McDonaldses, I’d rather go to Cuba.
What books do you like? I’ve just started Nothing to Envy. Interesting, but waiting for it to pick up. It seems to be the most popular recent NK book, so I expect it will. I was impressed with The Impossible State by Victor Cha. I thought it was a nice balance between descriptions of real life there and policy wonking. I’ve read a few others, but I’ll have to dig up the titles.
Any articles to recommend? I’m finding my local public library’s online research databases are an absolute gold mine.
Like I said, I basically just started with the reference section in Nothing to Envy, and am reading everything she cites. I’ve liked The Aquariums of Pyongyang, and This Is Paradise. I had to send Under the Loving Care of The Fatherly Leader back to the library before I was finished with it, because I was obsessively flipping back and forth between the book and the notes section and it was taking too long (I’m definitely going to either buy it or get it again). I’m currently reading Kim Il-Sung’s North Korea by Helen Hunter, who was a CIA specialist on the country.
I also read North of the DMZ: Essays on Daily Life in North Korea, and I thought it was one of the most interesting ones, since it was written by a former Soviet Union communist. That gave me a really different perspective on the issues (the author is in no way flattering to NK).
I had to skip around in North Korea Through the Looking Glass. It’s a product of the Brookings Institution, and was too policy-wonkish for me to find thoroughly meaningful or engaging.
The other papers I’ve read that are not books have all come from Nothing To Envy’s reference section and I found them online.
I thought Nothing To Envy was great because it focused on defectors from one particular city in one particular area, which gave it a more coherent presentation.
ETA: Thanks for the recommendation for the Cha book. I also got a recent recommendation of Escape from Camp 14. Have you read that one? I’d like the names of some of the books you’ve read that I haven’t.
I feel the same.
I watched the National Geographic documentary on Netflix. I felt rather bad for the people Ling interviewed for her story. The risk for them was too much. The Dutch documentary seemed more on the propaganda side with the “Have some kimchi!” and smiles but if anyone admitted they hated it they’d be risking their entire family to prison.
Is it really a cult of personality or total obedience because the alternative is your entire family behind bars. It was hard to gauge from that documentary I watched if the family really did love it there.
I’d rather wait and visit the musuems after the country closes down in my lifetime.
I found the DDR musuem in Berlin to be fascinating with the kitchen set-uo, the clothes but the bugged flats and fake voting showed what things were really like. The author of “Stasiland” went on a state sponsored tour
My ancestry is European and Cherokee so I wouldn’t have any problems on that score but I’d know what I was seeing was propaganda.
I’d have a huge problem with that.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/08/north-korea-rap-video-released_n_4563554.html
Those rappers Pacman and Peso made it out from their trip to film a music video. I guess freedom for Americans to travel is opening up since the issue of recording was a problem for the NG documentary. They had to sneak their footage in during a doctor’s cataract program.
Escape from Camp 14 is next on my list. I might do a broader general history first, though.
I read a couple of interesting ones from my local public library, but I can’t remember what they were called, and for some reason, I can’t find them in the online catalog. I’ll see if I can stop by and see what they were. I wish their selection and interlibrary loan system didn’t suck so bad so I could get my hands on some of the other books without buying all of them.*
I’ll definitely follow your lead and mine the Demick references. Most of what I’ve been reading recently is post-Kim Jong-Un. There was a lot of optimism and hope for change when he took over. The reality has not worked out so well. He’s starting to make Kim Jong-Il look like a pussycat. Interesting to see.
yes, I do realize the irony in complaining about this in a thread about North Korea.