# Would you want to send your kid to a "Public School Social Justice Factory"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982 "2018-02-01T20:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/221 "2018-02-06T21:19:50Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > May I also request that we delineate between K-12 education and post-secondary education? I’ve taught both, and the parameters are somewhat different in college classes, as students are adults–ostensibly, anyway. With this in mind, I went back and reread the teacher in question’s syllabus. This is not 10th Grade English. This is 11th Grade Lit and Comp. Moreover, looking over the EHS language arts offerings, all English courses offered are college prep - they don’t teach a “just graduate from high school” English course - in ninth grade all students take “9th grade pre-AP English” followed by “10th grade pre-AP English.” The readings in this course match the authors listed in their AP course description. This is AP English, and yes, if you are going to get college credit for an AP American Literature course, you should have passing familiarity with Marxist and feminist lit crit. (It looks like this particular class is blended - students who aren’t sure if they will take the AP American Lit test possibly take it, as well as those whose AP schedule is full up or need a little less challenge than the regular AP course - but want more challenge and/or test prep than the non-AP course offers) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/222 "2018-02-06T23:23:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont know about that. It seems to me that at most liberal rallies and protests it’s basically who can outdo each other on being far to the left. Basically who can yell “I hate Trump” the loudest. I don’t consider political rallies or protests a valid source to see how each side thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/223 "2018-02-06T23:30:30Z")
I strongly doubt UrbanRedneck has ever been at a “liberal rally”. Likely his only experience here is watching Fox News and other alt-right media reports which tell him what is going on from their highly slanted perspective. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/224 "2018-02-07T00:34:49Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I strongly doubt UrbanRedneck has ever been at a “liberal rally”. Likely his only experience here is watching Fox News and other alt-right media reports which tell him what is going on from their highly slanted perspective. Last ‘liberal’ rally I was at, was the March for Science last April. We were chanting virulently anti-Trump slogans like: \* What do we want? SCIENCE! When do we want it? AFTER PEER REVIEW!\* And because it was a cold, rainy day: _WE’RE NERDS! WE’RE WET! WE’RE REALLY, REALLY UPSET!_ Can’t you just feel the Trump-hate coming through?😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/225 "2018-02-07T07:09:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > As an academic, I’m more suspicious of things written by people who claim _not_ to have an ideological point of view. Things written by such authors are less likely to be worth my time, because they are less likely to contain the kind of self-reflection, self-criticism, and intellectual empathy, that is necessary for good, constructive, critical academic work. Depends on the field. For those sciences which don’t need to put “science” in the name, the only ideology which should be visible in class is the scientific method. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/226 "2018-02-07T08:01:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Depends on the field. For those sciences which don’t need to put “science” in the name, the only ideology which should be visible in class is the scientific method. I don’t know why you chose that particular delineation, given how apolitical Computer Science is (that is, at least as apolitical as Physics/Engineering/Chemistry/Math and so on). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/227 "2018-02-07T08:13:41Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I don’t know why you chose that particular delineation, given how apolitical Computer Science is (that is, at least as apolitical as Physics/Engineering/Chemistry/Math and so on). Because that joke is how English-speaking people often abbreviate “pure and applied sciences” without needing to explicitly indicate whether Biology (a part of Life Sciences) is included or not (it is), whether Engineering disciplines are (that’s the applied part), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/228 "2018-02-07T12:52:40Z")
Science historically is a political field. From the way the Soviets practiced it to the way its funded in the U.S. - politics plays a huge part in what is studied and taught. The results shouldn’t changed based off politics (though even that hasn’t always held true), but what you look for does. I wouldn’t want my college biology class to be taught by an Evangelical Christian creationist, unless he would make the disclaimer that was what he was - and then remained open minded enough to teach - well, actual Biology. One of my girlfriends is a PhD physicist. Her field of study - women in Science - she’s written entire books about how Science is viewed through a “male lens” - especially when you are teaching it and how that contributes to a lack of women scientists. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/229 "2018-02-07T12:59:18Z")
Oh, in the U.S. we have lots of High School Biology teachers who are Conservative Christians. I have another friend who has one teaching in his high school. The teacher has been reprimanded for teaching creationism, but hasn’t (and won’t) be fired. My friend just moves his kids out of that teachers class and into the class of another teacher - should they get him. (He’s another PhD Physicist). Getting rid of the teacher would involve suing the district. And that would create issues in a community that finds this appropriate. They’d probably end up moving. So the solution in a smallish city - make sure that the kids who are going to complain (or their parents are) don’t end up in the room - then no one has standing to sue. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/230 "2018-02-07T13:19:05Z")
Those books of your friend’s with the PhD in Physics are not themselves about Physics; they are about the history of Physics, or their sociology, but not about Physics. “In here, the only Trinity is the Four Fundamental Forces.” - Father Pedro Victory, SJ. The same Jesuit taught a seminar\* on theology which most people found way too advanced (we often had to remind him that most of us couldn’t understand German, Latin or Koiné Greek), but Orgo was about electrons running after each other; faith did not get invoked. That is the kind of attitude I expect from anybody teaching sciences. And in Spain, any teacher who taught Creationism in Biology would get fired quicker than you can say PTA but then, it isn’t even taught in Religion; it is taught in Philosophy as part of the study of religious thought. - seminars weren’t classes; they were “general culture stuff” with no impact on grades and no assistence requirement. You went if you felt like getting cultured. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/231 "2018-02-07T13:24:31Z")
No, but they are about the fundamental bias in teaching Physics - which is what this thread is supposedly about. Bias in teaching specifically English. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/232 "2018-02-07T14:16:13Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Shodan, when I teach _Huck Finn_… > > You can’t make thinkers out of kids if you don’t talk about real ideas. If you decide issues of race, gender, and class are off limits, you don’t have many real ideas to talk about. It’s interesting that you should mention _Huckleberry Finn_. On a possibly related note, a different school district in Minnesota has [decided](https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/education/4399793-duluth-schools-remove-kill-mockingbird-huckleberry-finn-curriculum) that this novel (as well as _To Kill A Mockingbird_) isn’t going to be on the curriculum. So whatever those novels have to say about race are real ideas, but are not going to be talked about in class, nor presented thru any lens, Marxist or otherwise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/233 "2018-02-07T14:33:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s interesting that you should mention _Huckleberry Finn_. On a possibly related note, a different school district in Minnesota has [decided](https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/education/4399793-duluth-schools-remove-kill-mockingbird-huckleberry-finn-curriculum) that this novel (as well as _To Kill A Mockingbird_) isn’t going to be on the curriculum. So whatever those novels have to say about race are real ideas, but are not going to be talked about in class, nor presented thru any lens, Marxist or otherwise. I’m sure you have a broader–and relevant–point to make with this information, but for the life of me I cannot see it. I blame lack of coffee, but would you kindly elucidate for the brainwashed liberal scum in the gallery? How is it “possibly related?” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/234 "2018-02-07T14:43:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So whatever those novels have to say about race are real ideas, but are not going to be talked about in class, nor presented thru any lens, Marxist or otherwise. Which is why they are using other novels without the racial slurs to teach the same things. From your link: > [@](#): > > “We felt that we could still teach the same standards and expectations through other novels that didn’t require students to feel humiliated or marginalized by the use of racial slurs,” Cary said. So they are making a local choice to use appropriate teaching materials, as opposed to ignoring the subject. The subjects are still being discussed, and presented through a variety of lenses. It’s just the source materials that are being changed. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/235 "2018-02-07T14:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a fantastic post. I do hope Shodan and Urbanredneck consider it carefully. > [@](#): > > Shodan, when I teach Huck Finn… > You can’t make thinkers out of kids if you don’t talk about real ideas. If you decide issues of race, gender, and class are off limits, you don’t have many real ideas to talk about. I haven’t read the whole thread carefully, but I’d like to point out to **MAnda Jo** 1.Wow…you sound like a great teacher. 2. what you are teaching is not “issues of race,gender and class” (in the way that Social Justice Warriors define it) What you are teaching is _how to think critically_, and how to compare the changes that societies go through. What I, and Shodan,disapprove of is teaching “race, gender, and class” the way it is too often presented by lefties: as a study of victimhood and oppression. Here’s an example: a required course at [Depaul University](https://www.depaul.edu/academics/undergraduate/Pages/core-curriculum.aspx) in Chicago: all 15,000 students are required to take a course called"Seminar on Multiculturalism in the US"-the purpose of which is to study " the historical roots of inequality and **the lasting effects of oppression.**" It all about the oppression. What you teach in your class on Huck Finn is all about critical thinking and understanding social changes.Not victimhood and automatically blaming the white man for everything. Keep up the good work! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/236 "2018-02-07T15:01:47Z")
Oh, noes. White guys have to learn about how white guys oppressed people. Uh, how about taking an adults approach about this by sucking it up, learning your lesson, and dealing with it? Can’t you just do that, instead of whining about it on the internet? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/237 "2018-02-07T15:05:39Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Here’s an example: a required course at [Depaul University](https://www.depaul.edu/academics/undergraduate/Pages/core-curriculum.aspx) in Chicago: all 15,000 students are required to take a course called"Seminar on Multiculturalism in the US"-the purpose of which is to study " the historical roots of inequality and **the lasting effects of oppression.**" > It all about the oppression. At least put out the full quote, rather than the misleading intro you used. “Gain a critical perspective on the historical roots of inequality and the lasting effects of oppression.” It’s all about getting a perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/238 "2018-02-07T15:33:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > At least put out the full quote, rather than the misleading intro you used. Agreed. Let’s do a little research, shall we? I googled the course and found this description: > [@](#): > > This course provides the opportunity for students to learn about some dimension of multiculturalism relevant to the United States, as considered in the context of the global community. Multiculturalism includes questions of ethnicity, race, class, gender, language, religion, and sexual orientation. Courses pay attention to the history of multiculturalism; examine the experiences and perspectives of at least three distinct cultural groups; develop a critical perspective about meanings of multiculturalism; and investigate the historical roots of inequalities related to differences in class, ethnicity, gender, age, language, religion, ability, and sexual orientation. \*\*Topics of seminars vary and students select a course that interests them. \*\*Students can complete only one course numbered LSP 200. Formerly ISP 200. Bolding mine. I went and dug (by which I mean it took exactly one more google search) for examples of the seminar topics and [found this page:](https://www.depaul.edu/university-catalog/academic-handbooks/undergraduate/university-information/liberal-studies-program/liberal-studies-common-core/Pages/seminar-on-multiculturalism-in-the-united-states.aspx) Well over a hundred topics have been offered, including ones like “Multiethnic Comedy” and “Immigration, Entrepreneurship and Innovation in the American Economy.” But I guess it’s a lot easier to do a pull quote and call it “automatically blaming the white man for everything.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/239 "2018-02-07T15:35:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s interesting that you should mention _Huckleberry Finn_. On a possibly related note, a different school district in Minnesota has [decided](https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/education/4399793-duluth-schools-remove-kill-mockingbird-huckleberry-finn-curriculum) that this novel (as well as _To Kill A Mockingbird_) isn’t going to be on the curriculum. So whatever those novels have to say about race are real ideas, but are not going to be talked about in class, nor presented thru any lens, Marxist or otherwise. > > Regards, > Shodan **Manda** wrote a really thoughtful post, and this is all you got? A whatabout? C’mon, **Shodan** … I know there’s a decent and thoughtful poster in there. I’ve seen him before. Why not put some effort into some real engagement? Some coming together as people and as Americans? Why not honor **Manda’s** post put putting some fraction of the effort she did into a response? I’m gonna cut out the snark in this thread, and I’d encourage you to do so. This really isn’t about teaching kids to be marxists. Let’s try and talk about this like reasonable, adult, and decent Americans, not bitter snarkmonsters. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/240 "2018-02-07T16:32:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s interesting that you should mention _Huckleberry Finn_. On a possibly related note, a different school district in Minnesota has [decided](https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/education/4399793-duluth-schools-remove-kill-mockingbird-huckleberry-finn-curriculum) that this novel (as well as _To Kill A Mockingbird_) isn’t going to be on the curriculum. So whatever those novels have to say about race are real ideas, but are not going to be talked about in class, nor presented thru any lens, Marxist or otherwise. > > Regards, > Shodan So if I teach Huck Finn and talk about racism and class bigotry and gendered assumptions, you’re going to call my principal and accuse me of indoctrinating you kid, but if I don’t teach the book, I’m also a liberal wuss who is sanitizing history and is afraid to talk about real issues? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982.md?page=13)