# Would you want to send your kid to a "Public School Social Justice Factory"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982 "2018-02-01T20:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/281 "2018-02-08T19:38:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’m being pedantic, but the quote is actually from the Gettysburg Address. Which carries even less authority than the DoI, but whatever. Heh, you’re right! My brain gave it to the DoI by mistake. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/282 "2018-02-08T19:44:23Z")
Lincoln was a big cribber. Blame him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/283 "2018-02-08T20:15:14Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s not a matter of “getting the rights”, but rather of purchasing the text. You can often find really cheap paperbacks of works that are out of copyright. You can also find them on-line and photocopy them. More recent works (or works old enough that you need a recent translation and/or good linear notes) are vastly more expensive. In many cases, the only way to teach more modern works is to require kids to buy them. I won’t do it because I’m in a poor school and that’s a ridiculous barrier to entry. But I know people who do. Sometimes schools will buy “real” books, but it’d be a rare district that would fund more than a couple for a year-long course. > > Because of this, I tend to teach fewer works by people of color and/or women than I would like. We read a little Wollstonecraft and a little Stanton, Sojorner Truth, MLK, Harriet Jacobs. It’s honestly easier in a non-fiction course in many ways. When I taught AP Lit my book list veered very Dead White Men, largely because of this issue. Huh, that’s actually pretty helpful information, and my SJW rage just cooled off a bit. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/284 "2018-02-08T21:00:20Z")
My own SJW rage has burned bright at professional developments when people have listed 4-6 expensive novels they teach and then explained that students who are “committed to the course” will “find a way to pay for them”. Related to that are the teachers that insist students buy all the books because “they have to be able to write in them”. Annotations are nice. I liked and benefited from annotating books in school. But they don’t seem to realize that they are taking a stance that it’s better not to take the course at all then to take it and not annotate the texts. That seems patently ridiculous to me. I think what it really is is that they just can’t imagine that it’s genuinely a hardship to buy a $14 trade paperback, and that the kids with the least resources are also the ones least able to make use of cheaper options, like ordering used off Amazon or driving around to used bookstores. It’s especially bad when it’s a cool, new, obscure novel. \*Gatsby \*is generally available used. _Oscar Wao_? Not so much. (though we did get the school to buy that one for our seniors this year) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/285 "2018-02-08T21:03:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My own SJW rage has burned bright at professional developments when people have listed 4-6 expensive novels they teach and then explained that students who are “committed to the course” will “find a way to pay for them”. Related to that are the teachers that insist students buy all the books because “they have to be able to write in them”. Annotations are nice. I liked and benefited from annotating books in school. But they don’t seem to realize that they are taking a stance that it’s better not to take the course at all then to take it and not annotate the texts. That seems patently ridiculous to me. I think what it really is is that they just can’t imagine that it’s genuinely a hardship to buy a $14 trade paperback, and that the kids with the least resources are also the ones least able to make use of cheaper options, like ordering used off Amazon or driving around to used bookstores. It’s especially bad when it’s a cool, new, obscure novel. \*Gatsby \*is generally available used. _Oscar Wao_? Not so much. (though we did get the school to buy that one for our seniors this year) That’s pretty frustrating. It’s one of my basic rules that I’m not going to give students any financial requirements whatsoever: I’ll certainly **ask** for money and resources, but I’m only going to ask such that the wealthier parents can cover the poorer parents. (This is gonna be different for me than for you because I work at a school with both very wealthy and very poor students). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/286 "2018-02-08T21:07:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Some responses were awesome. Some were just leftist yahoos hurling insults. Maybe so but the fact of the matter is that you have been provided with ample evidence the article cited in the OP was total nonsense, and, to be honest, you shouldn’t have had to be told that. The article is preposterous, and anyone reading it should have been extremely skeptical of it. And yet we still see this: > [@chappachula](#): > > Oh, yeah, and if you happen to learn about how this country was founded as a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.–well, don’t pay attention—that part isn’t worth mentioning. It’s not politically correct. Straw man, come take your beating! Who ever said the Gettysburg Address wasn’t politically correct? No one, but “ha ha, Lincolns word aren’t politically correct” is a good conservative zinger, I guess, provided you look past the fact it’s nonsense. And, by the way, I think chappachula is quite missing Lincoln’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/287 "2018-02-08T22:10:37Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Maybe I’m just getting old, maybe I’m not up with the latest trends. Just see if you follow me: > > I remember when conservatives were adults. I remember when they could talk about ideas, strong ideas, and use the language appropriate to strong ideas. I remember when they didn’t shy away from ideas, or from language, and could use _words_, _all_ of the words, to express those important ideas. > > Maybe you don’t remember. Maybe you never experienced it. I suppose this is all going right over your head. > > Maybe, for you, the conservative movement has always been whining and self-inflicted misery, claiming to be insulted as a debate tactic, and using _words_ as an excuse to _ignore_ ideas instead of as a tool to express them. > > I certainly hope I haven’t offended your delicate sensibilities with my politically incorrect post. Ignored, your just a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/288 "2018-02-08T22:16:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ignored, your just a troll. Indicating someone is on your ignore list is not permitted in this forum. While that’s not precisely what was said above, the implication is there. Don’t do this in the future. The troll part however, cannot be overlooked. This is a warning for personal insults. Calling another poster a troll is not permitted in this forum. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/289 "2018-02-08T22:18:12Z")
You’re still ignoring the best and most thoughtful arguments against your posts, **Urbanredneck**. At this point it seems likely to be intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/290 "2018-02-08T22:24:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s not a matter of “getting the rights”, but rather of purchasing the text. You can often find really cheap paperbacks of works that are out of copyright. You can also find them on-line and photocopy them. More recent works (or works old enough that you need a recent translation and/or good linear notes) are vastly more expensive. In many cases, the only way to teach more modern works is to require kids to buy them. I won’t do it because I’m in a poor school and that’s a ridiculous barrier to entry. But I know people who do. Sometimes schools will buy “real” books, but it’d be a rare district that would fund more than a couple for a year-long course. > > Because of this, I tend to teach fewer works by people of color and/or women than I would like. We read a little Wollstonecraft and a little Stanton, Sojorner Truth, MLK, Harriet Jacobs. It’s honestly easier in a non-fiction course in many ways. When I taught AP Lit my book list veered very Dead White Men, largely because of this issue. I agree cost is probably a big issue. I remember back in the day we read the basics like the Scarlet letter and the copies were old and worn out - but they were all the teacher had. For “new” books and writers we had to rely on “Weekly Reader” type publications. What I find interesting is the reading books kids use up until about 8th grade. These are the books which are a compilation of stories which the kids read and learn vocabulary and such. Now I’ve looked at some of them going back to the 50’s and over the years, they always added new and updated stories from new authors. So when I was in school in the 70’s we were reading about black kids going thru busing, newly immigrated Asian kids dealing with a new country, and still a couple of stories about kids growing up on a farm. Whereas a typical reading book from the 50’s were largely rural centered. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/291 "2018-02-08T22:32:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re still ignoring the best and most thoughtful arguments against your posts, **Urbanredneck**. At this point it seems likely to be intentional. No, I ignore the rude comments and slams. Plus what law says I have to respond to every comment? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/292 "2018-02-08T22:34:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Indicating someone is on your ignore list is not permitted in this forum. While that’s not precisely what was said above, the implication is there. Don’t do this in the future. > > The troll part however, cannot be overlooked. This is a warning for personal insults. Calling another poster a troll is not permitted in this forum. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. > > [/moderating] Ok, wont do it again. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/293 "2018-02-08T22:43:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, I ignore the rude comments and slams. Both of these things are true. You are ignoring the posts you consider rude. You are _also_ ignoring the more thoughtful and insightful. That’s really plain. It’s frustrating, because it feels that you are deliberately ignoring posts that you find challenging. . ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/294 "2018-02-08T23:04:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Plus what law says I have to respond to every comment? You opened this thread in Great Debates. People have posted direct and damning refutations of your main argument, demonstrating that the article you posted was wildly inaccurate and the product of a partisan campaign. Unless you’re planning on addressing those points people will discount your opinion. If you didn’t want to debate things why didn’t you open this in MPSIMS or The Pit? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/295 "2018-02-08T23:50:58Z")
My wife has a masters degree in social work, and I’ve been saying for years that a lot of the things she learned in school ought to be required for every high school student. We’d have a much better shot at fixing some of the problems we face as a society, if more people recognized the _existence_ of those problems. I don’t know enough to comment on this particular school (the article linked in the OP seems like a rather biased take), but as a general goal – hell yes, public schools should be social justice factories, or at least social _awareness_ factories. (And I really believe awareness of the problems leads to a desire to change them, especially among young people who aren’t so set in their views.) So many of the problems we face in American society, and that individual Americans are forced to deal with every day, revolve around issues of poverty and racism. Understanding of these issues ought to be a part of what it means to be an educated American citizen. I’m not saying the school should promote a particular policy to address these issues, but they should promote an understanding of the issues – beyond, you know, “racism is bad, and it sucks to be poor”. To give one example: I got good grades in school, went on to college and even grad school, on paper I would be considered “well educated”… and I had basically zero awareness of the history of systematic housing discrimination in this country, until I was out of school and in my 30s. And this is something that [shaped American cities](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/10/19/498536077/interactive-redlining-map-zooms-in-on-americas-history-of-discrimination) all across the country in ways that persist to this day. I’m sure that at some point I had been required to memorize that the Fair Housing Act in '68 outlawed discrimination in housing based on race – I’m pretty sure at the time I thought the problem was just individual racist landlords, mainly just in the South, and that the issue was basically solved once the act went into effect. I’d never heard of redlining, or of racially restrictive covenants. I’d never even thought about the long-term effects of these disparities. Likewise, I’m sure at some point I had to memorize that the G.I. Bill of '44 provided benefits for veterans returning from World War II, but I learned nothing about the racial disparities in how these benefits were given out.\* That’s a failure of our education system, which deserves to be corrected. \*One particularly egregious example I’ve seen cited – but hardly the only one – is that in one year in the state of Mississippi, the G.I. Bill guaranteed over 3,000 business loans for whites, and only 2 for Blacks – less than 1/15th of 1% percent of the total loans, in a state where Blacks were more than 45% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/296 "2018-02-09T00:00:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So what do you all think? Would you want your 10th grader to read books and apply “feminist & marxist” thoughts to it? What’s the concern here, that it’ll turn them into a Communist? Or, God forbid, someone who respects women? It’s not as if it says “interpret literature through the lens of Marxism, _exclusively_.” Learning how to interpret literature from different perspectives seems like a positive thing – and good preparation for college. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/297 "2018-02-09T00:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*One particularly egregious example I’ve seen cited – but hardly the only one – is that in one year in the state of Mississippi, the G.I. Bill guaranteed over 3,000 business loans for whites, and only 2 for Blacks – less than 1/15th of 1% percent of the total loans, in a state where Blacks were more than 45% of the population. I meant to say “home, business and farm loans”. (And while I don’t want to derail the thread by lingering on this particular example, since this is the SDMB, here’s a [cite](http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/when-affirmative-action-was-white)) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/298 "2018-02-09T01:42:26Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Unfortunately most of the kids have trouble even writing a basic paragraph. Also most of the kids are having a tough time with this because so few read anymore and communication for this generation is mostly being done thru email and text. OMG, ROFL, IKR, and others. Oh, oh oh, the irony here. Oh, it freaking hurts. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/299 "2018-02-09T04:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > You opened this thread in Great Debates. People have posted direct and damning refutations of your main argument, demonstrating that the article you posted was wildly inaccurate and the product of a partisan campaign. Unless you’re planning on addressing those points people will discount your opinion. as they should! ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982/300 "2018-02-09T04:30:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My own SJW rage has burned bright at professional developments when people have listed 4-6 expensive novels they teach and then explained that students who are “committed to the course” will “find a way to pay for them”. Related to that are the teachers that insist students buy all the books because “they have to be able to write in them”. Annotations are nice. I liked and benefited from annotating books in school. But they don’t seem to realize that they are taking a stance that it’s better not to take the course at all then to take it and not annotate the texts. That seems patently ridiculous to me. I think what it really is is that they just can’t imagine that it’s genuinely a hardship to buy a $14 trade paperback, and that the kids with the least resources are also the ones least able to make use of cheaper options, like ordering used off Amazon or driving around to used bookstores. It’s especially bad when it’s a cool, new, obscure novel. \*Gatsby \*is generally available used. _Oscar Wao_? Not so much. (though we did get the school to buy that one for our seniors this year) Do you teach in a private school? Many states have laws prohibiting public schools and public school teachers from requiring students to purchase textbooks or supplementary reading materials. That’s why in my cash-strapped district, all students were reading \*The Scarlet Letter \*from copies with missing covers. It’s also why _A Yellow Raft in Blue Water_ was considered a relatively recent purchase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-want-to-send-your-kid-to-a-public-school-social-justice-factory/807982.md?page=16)