# Would YOU write a letter of apology to a professor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503 "2017-02-22T20:02:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/101 "2017-02-25T12:59:22Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > IANAL, but what is the difference between “not supposed to” and “technically not supposed to”? My guess is, that professors overlook violations when a recording is useful or flattering. Was this recording flattering to the professor? > > What is the law, anyway? Can someone videotape me and put the result on YouTube without my consent? Does it matter whether I rave in public, or in a place with an expectation of privacy? Whether the student broke the law or not, it seems OP acknowledges the student broke the school rules. Does this give the school right to expel him? Does the distinction between public and private schools matter? > > It seems like OP acknowledges that the student was wrong and that it was proper for him to be expelled; he asks whether student should “stick to principles” and remain expelled. Perhaps so, if he thinks another school would be a better fit for him. > > But it confuses me that the student “needed proof” so posted the “rant” on social media. If the “proof” was what was important he could have arranged a private screening with school officials. OP: is there a better phrase than “needed proof” to describe student’s real intention? > > BTW, [www.redstate.com](http://www.redstate.com) [del]never did allow me[/del] made it very difficult to view the page OP linked to. I eventully get “note to site owner: link expired” or such; perhaps after making mistakes in repeated efforts to prove I’m not a robot. (I clicked again just now, and was finally presented with the page … without even a robot test.) Why link to redstate anyway —the only relevancy there (setting aside a joke “Nah, I made that last part up.”) is a YouTube link. > > I didn’t listen to the Professor’s ant-Trump anti-Pence rant — I could tape record myself if I wanted that. 😛 The fact that the student rejected the “rant” demonstrates to me that the professor’s work is necessary; the important question is _how to get through to people effectively._ Well think about the old chant: What do we want? - JUSTICE! When do we want it? - NOW! So was it so unreasonable for a college student to expect to see some kind of action when other college students expect their grievances to be heard? Reading the story it seems the student did try to go to the administration but felt like nothing was being done so thats why he posted it. Others on this board who work in academia say student complaints against professors are a slow process and are private so a student really doesnt know if their complaint goes anywhere. PS. Sorry the link wasnt working. [HERE](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/college-744067-neil-cox.html) is a better link. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/102 "2017-02-25T13:20:37Z")
Going along with this discussion I’d like to share 2 news articles that discuss some after effects: 1. [This one](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/neil-744279-college-student.html)titled ‘They’re crucifying this poor guy’: Suspended OCC student receives support from across the country" It discusses the case where the student is getting loads of support from across the country. One person says "“Mr. O’Neil is the Edward Snowden of the college system and kudos to him for exposing this kind of leftist hyperbole…” 2.[This one](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/students-743766-record-teacher.html) titled “Can students record a teacher, as a study tool or to ward off politics?” said the college after the student returned from winter break, put up prominent signs everywhere spelling out the schools policy to NOT allow recording. It also says even the teachers who before had allowed or even encouraged recording, now do not. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/103 "2017-02-27T21:45:56Z")
Urbanredneck–sometimes class discussions get really intimate and personal. Let’s say a student was telling a story about a time they were sexually assaulted, and another student recorded and posted that. Then, in response, the internet does what it does in these cases–the student who talked about being sexually assaulted would get death threats and rape threats and be called all sorts of horrible names. If, in that case, the school punished the student for making a recording against school policy, would you have a problem with it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/104 "2017-02-27T22:16:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Reading the story it seems the student did try to go to the administration but felt like nothing was being done so thats why he posted it. …Right. The thing is, he wasn’t entitled to have anything done about it. His professor broke no code of professional ethics for professors, despite what many on the right wish. If you believe academic free speech should be censored in the professional classroom, where all students are grown-ass adults, this is certainly a case you can make. The case for such draconian political correctness should happen through the legislature and courts: you can’t insist that a nonexistent ethical rule be enforced on a professor. That’s what the kid wanted: “My professor didn’t break any rules, but I think what she did should be against the rules, so I broke the rules to tell on her! Why am I getting punished instead of her?” I lack sympathy for this position. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/105 "2017-02-28T17:12:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …Right. The thing is, he wasn’t entitled to have anything done about it. His professor broke no code of professional ethics for professors, despite what many on the right wish. This is complete nonsense. It’s unethical to use your position to lecture paying students on off-topic subjects. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you believe academic free speech should be censored in the professional classroom, where all students are grown-ass adults, this is certainly a case you can make. The case for such draconian political correctness should happen through the legislature and courts: you can’t insist that a nonexistent ethical rule be enforced on a professor. The professor is free to throw political tantrums outside the classroom. That’s the free part of it. Taking it to the classroom is an abuse of power and it’s at the expense of the student. That the school has “rules” about recording professors abusing their students is meaningless. If I was the student I tell the Dean that I have a right to the education I paid for and I"m not there for political abuse by ANYONE. I would demand an apology from the school, the professor and anyone else that doesn’t want hordes of people protesting on campus. They can stand back and crowdfunded PR campaign aimed at the school’s fundraising. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/106 "2017-02-28T17:21:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > How does one apologize for three pages? With a lot of "very"s? Yep, and cheat your margins a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/107 "2017-02-28T20:44:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is complete nonsense. It’s unethical to use your position to lecture paying students on off-topic subjects. Can you point me at the ethical code you’re looking at? > [@](#): > > The professor is free to throw political tantrums outside the classroom. That’s the free part of it. Taking it to the classroom is an abuse of power and it’s at the expense of the student. > > That the school has “rules” about recording professors abusing their students is meaningless. If I was the student I tell the Dean that I have a right to the education I paid for and I"m not there for political abuse by ANYONE. I would demand an apology from the school, the professor and anyone else that doesn’t want hordes of people protesting on campus. They can stand back and crowdfunded PR campaign aimed at the school’s fundraising. That’s brave and noble of you. It also is apparently a position backed up by nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/108 "2017-02-28T20:53:40Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Urbanredneck–sometimes class discussions get really intimate and personal. Let’s say a student was telling a story about a time they were sexually assaulted, and another student recorded and posted that. Then, in response, the internet does what it does in these cases–the student who talked about being sexually assaulted would get death threats and rape threats and be called all sorts of horrible names. > > If, in that case, the school punished the student for making a recording against school policy, would you have a problem with it? BUT, that wasnt the case. Their was no discussion. Your example is totally different. The professor was upset the Hillary lost and had it in her head that we had just elected some evil dictator so she used, no abused, her position of authority by going on a rant which made the student feel afraid she would go after him. Professors have been known to abuse power before and students know it. I see no reason she should not have been held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/109 "2017-02-28T21:00:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …Right. The thing is, he wasn’t entitled to have anything done about it. His professor broke no code of professional ethics for professors, despite what many on the right wish. > > If you believe academic free speech should be censored in the professional classroom, where all students are grown-ass adults, this is certainly a case you can make. The case for such draconian political correctness should happen through the legislature and courts: you can’t insist that a nonexistent ethical rule be enforced on a professor. > > That’s what the kid wanted: “My professor didn’t break any rules, but I think what she did should be against the rules, so I broke the rules to tell on her! Why am I getting punished instead of her?” > > I lack sympathy for this position. I see no wrong in trying to hold a professor accountable. They are not perfect. In college we protested things like test questions and many times got questions removed. We also held professors accountable when what was taught in class wasnt what was on the tests. We even went after professors who didnt grade fairly. Remember also this is a community college and her salary is paid by the taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/110 "2017-02-28T21:17:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Can you point me at the ethical code you’re looking at? yes, reread my post. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/111 "2017-02-28T21:25:48Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > BUT, that wasnt the case. Their was no discussion. Your example is totally different. > > The professor was upset the Hillary lost and had it in her head that we had just elected some evil dictator so she used, no abused, her position of authority by going on a rant which made the student feel afraid she would go after him. Professors have been known to abuse power before and students know it. I see no reason she should not have been held accountable. How do you write the policy to protect students? If recording is permitted, it will have a chilling effect on a student’s ability to express themselves. As a student, I always felt like class was at least semi-private. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/112 "2017-02-28T21:31:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, reread my post. So…your post is your cite? The ethical code is the one you just invented on the spot? Either you’re a bit unclear on what a code of ethics is, or you’ve sent copies of it to this professor prior to her outburst, and her school signed off on it, and you left out that bit of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/113 "2017-02-28T21:39:23Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I see no wrong in trying to hold a professor accountable. They are not perfect. In college we protested things like test questions and many times got questions removed. We also held professors accountable when what was taught in class wasnt what was on the tests. We even went after professors who didnt grade fairly. > > Remember also this is a community college and her salary is paid by the taxpayers. Yes, I know who pays her salary. That’s a very silly comment. We taxpayers have for decades set up academia as laboratories for ideas, in part by insulating professors from the pressures of political correctness. We recognize that if professors are always looking over their shoulders to see how they’ll be punished for expressing ideas, our nation’s intellectual progress will be stymied. If you think that stultification is worth it so that adults don’t have to listen to uncomfortable opinions, make your case. I think it’s not worth it. Holding professors accountable for academic malfeasance is not what’s going on here. [Magiver, here’s a statement on professorial ethics](https://www.aaup.org/report/statement-professional-ethics), which may help you understand what’s being asked for. Some relevant passages: > [@](#): > > Professors, guided by a deep conviction of the worth and dignity of the advancement of knowledge, recognize the special responsibilities placed upon them. Their primary responsibility to their subject is to seek and to state the truth as they see it. > … > Professors demonstrate respect for students as individuals and adhere to their proper roles as intellectual guides and counselors. Professors make every reasonable effort to foster honest academic conduct and to ensure that their evaluations of students reflect each student’s true merit. They respect the confidential nature of the relationship between professor and student. They avoid any exploitation, harassment, or discriminatory treatment of students. > … > As colleagues, professors have obligations that derive from common membership in the community of scholars. Professors do not discriminate against or harass colleagues. They respect and defend the free inquiry of associates, even when it leads to findings and conclusions that differ from their own. > … > As members of their community, professors have the rights and obligations of other citizens. Professors measure the urgency of these obligations in the light of their responsibilities to their subject, to their students, to their profession, and to their institution. When they speak or act as private persons, they avoid creating the impression of speaking or acting for their college or university. As citizens engaged in a profession that depends upon freedom for its health and integrity, professors have a particular obligation to promote conditions of free inquiry and to further public understanding of academic freedom. First part of the quote: if she’s putting forth the truth as best she understands it, she’s not out of line. Second part of the quote: if she singled students out or harassed them, she was totally out of line, as I said before. Third part of the quote: other professors, including those in administrative positions, must give high deference to academic freedom. Fourth part of the quote: if she made it look like she was speaking for the college, she was out of line. The evidence I’ve seen does not suggest she was out of line. If she did harass students (there are conflicting accounts, and I’ve seen no reason to privilege one about the other), that’s not at all okay. I reserve judgment on that particular issue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/114 "2017-02-28T22:01:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So…your post is your cite? The ethical code is the one you just invented on the spot? My post was common sense ethics. It was self explanatory. You can either discuss what I’ve said… or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/115 "2017-02-28T22:13:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So the kid violated a law in order to try to attack the expressive rights of a professor. Your claim is that because the law is often violated, but violations that don’t attack expressive rights are generally not punished, it’s unfair to enforce the law in this case? Maybe the kid thinks the law against recording professors is similar to the laws against recording police officers. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/116 "2017-02-28T23:43:55Z")
As an Engineering professor (NOT full-time faculty, however) I’m appalled by some of the attitudes in this thread. It reads as “The professor serves us! We’re their boss! We pay their salary! They can never drift off-topic or editorialize on something not in the syllabus!” We’re human too, you know. Try switching to distance learning if you want to reduce or eliminate the human factors of being an adult in higher education. I do think the professor in this example was being a boor. If I’d seen her to it, as a peer I would have said “good grief, save it for Facebook.” But there’s nothing in the very extensive academic guidelines I was trained in for my job, nor the online handbook at my University, that would have resulted in any violation if that professor worked here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/117 "2017-03-01T00:09:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My post was common sense ethics. It was self explanatory. You can either discuss what I’ve said… or not. Ah, so there is no code of ethics in play here. As I thought. You appear to be unclear on what a code of ethics is. > [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe the kid thinks the law against recording professors is similar to the laws against recording police officers. Sure. And there’s a legitimate case that such laws should be unconstitutional. If he wants to make that case, I find it an interesting discussion. But I’m not clear how much he is making that constitutional case here. And I’m far from convinced that the differences between the two (cops are generally operating in public, not in private, when they might be recorded; cops generally lack copyright to their arrest performances; etc.) are so trivial that they can be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/118 "2017-03-01T00:35:55Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > As an Engineering professor (NOT full-time faculty, however) I’m appalled by some of the attitudes in this thread. It reads as “The professor serves us! We’re their boss! We pay their salary! They can never drift off-topic or editorialize on something not in the syllabus!” > > We’re human too, you know. Try switching to distance learning if you want to reduce or eliminate the human factors of being an adult in higher education. > > I do think the professor in this example was being a boor. If I’d seen her to it, as a peer I would have said “good grief, save it for Facebook.” But there’s nothing in the very extensive academic guidelines I was trained in for my job, nor the online handbook at my University, that would have resulted in any violation if that professor worked here. If I hired an engineer to advise on a project and they proceeded to rant about some political bullshit I’d fire them. Students aren’t rant fodder for unrelated bullshit. When I was in college we had a non-tenured professor cop an attitude in class. He didn’t break any specific rules. But we went to the Dean and expressed our opinion. They replaced the professor. Yes, professors work for the students. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/119 "2017-03-01T00:46:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, professors work for the students. No they don’t. They work for, as previously pointed out, the taxpayers (or, more accurately, the voters). If they worked for the students, students would have a right to demand high grades in the class. Instead, they work for me, and for you, regardless of whether you take a class with them, because we citizens have an interest in having institutions that both offer clear courses of education also evaluate students to see how much they’ve learned. Sorry if that’s not common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/120 "2017-03-01T00:47:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, professors work for the students. No, they most certainly do not. Saying it over and over again won’t make it true. Your anecdote, aside from being remarkably vague, is still anecdotal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503.md?page=7)