# Would YOU write a letter of apology to a professor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503 "2017-02-22T20:02:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/141 "2017-03-01T13:43:44Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > 1. The school ADMITS it wasnt totally clear that recording was illegal. It was hit or miss depending on the class and teacher and situation. Thats why when they got back from break they suddenly had notices posted everywhere. Wasn’t clear, yes. There’s a legal principle, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” The school is being merciful here. > [@](#): > > 1. The whole case against the student was thrown out because the school ADMITS the student had a motive for recording. 😕 What? Do you think there was ever a doubt that the student had a motive? Nobody disputes that; nobody thinks he accidentally turned on his phone, accidentally released the footage. The question is whether his motive is enough to render his actions justified, AND whether his motive is enough to render his actions legal. As I read it, the school is dropping the suspension because they don’t want the headache. Which is totally their right. But they didn’t have to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/142 "2017-03-01T13:45:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What if the officer issued the ticket in Massachusetts, and bragged about how bogus it was right on the scene, and was recorded doing so. . . but then the person who did the recording was arrested for violating Massachusetts wiretap laws? > > Maybe the individual thus arrested would argue that there’s a First Amendment right to record “… information about government officials in a form that can readily be disseminated to others,” which “serves a cardinal First Amendment interest in protecting and promoting the free discussion of governmental affairs.” > > Is that a possible argument? Out of curiosity, why are you ignoring the salient differences between cop interactions on a public road, and professorial interactions in a classroom? Do you think they’re not salient? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/143 "2017-03-01T13:50:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Out of curiosity, why are you ignoring the salient differences between cop interactions on a public road, and professorial interactions in a classroom? Do you think they’re not salient? I think the people confidently asserting that the law prohibits the student’s recordings should be addressing the First Amendment issue. There are differences between police and teachers, but because teachers in a public institution are government employees, there are also similarities. Certainly if I were the student, I’d be arguing that the same principles that inform Glik v. Cunniffe apply to me. Now, I can also see the distinguishing aspects of the two. But I’m disappointed that no one arguing in favor of the school seems to acknowledge that this is a weakness that they should address; they have instead taken advantage of the fact that their opposition has not developed the First Amendment argument. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/144 "2017-03-01T13:54:36Z")
Bricker, does taking a course imply that the student agrees to the terms outlined in the syllabus? If it _does_, or if the professor is the sort that has students sign the syllabus (I don’t think this was the case), would a student waive their right to record even in a one-party consent state? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/145 "2017-03-01T13:56:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Bricker, does taking a course imply that the student agrees to the terms outlined in the syllabus? > > If it _does_, or if the professor is the sort that has students sign the syllabus (I don’t think this was the case), would a student waive their right to record even in a one-party consent state? I don’t think so, based on California’s Education Code S. 66301 which would make such rule or agreement against recording moot: > [@](#): > > (a) Neither the Regents of the University of California, the Trustees of the California State University, the governing board of a community college district, nor an administrator of any campus of those institutions, shall make or enforce a rule subjecting a student to disciplinary sanction solely on the basis of conduct that is speech or other communication that, when engaged in outside a campus of those institutions, is protected from governmental restriction by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or Section 2 of Article I of the California Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/146 "2017-03-01T14:38:18Z")
That rule seems to only apply to abridging constitutional free speech. It says “when engaged in outside a campus of those institutions.” So in other words, the sniff test is that the school can’t make a rule prohibiting speech that would otherwise be legal in the non-campus world. The professor expressly denied consent for recording, and that seems to be legal in California. Wouldn’t it only apply here if California’s two-party consent law is unconstitutional? Be gentle, I am a layperson. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/147 "2017-03-01T14:44:17Z")
Lost my edit window. I did look up Glik v. Cunniffe - so this all hinges on whether a professor is a public official in a public place, yes? If they are, and since a person can always record a public official in a public place, then a professor cannot forbid recordings in the classroom? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/148 "2017-03-01T14:55:21Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > The student wasn’t a snowflake. He never said he couldn’t handle hearing contrarian views. It was inappropriate for the situation. I think it’s a form deception to call a class Human Sexuality and then delve into politics. One could even called it larceny. In fact, a lawsuit would be very appropriate on that basis alone. What does the course catalog say? Lesbians, bestiality, and why Trump sucks? Politics can have a very strong influence on how human sexuality is expressed. I don’t think the course could be taught without discussing how political viewpoints influencing law and social policy affect human sexuality. The professor would be negligent in her job not to mention this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/149 "2017-03-01T15:31:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the people confidently asserting that the law prohibits the student’s recordings should be addressing the First Amendment issue. There are differences between police and teachers, but because teachers in a public institution are government employees, there are also similarities. Certainly if I were the student, I’d be arguing that the same principles that inform Glik v. Cunniffe apply to me. > > Now, I can also see the distinguishing aspects of the two. But I’m disappointed that no one arguing in favor of the school seems to acknowledge that this is a weakness that they should address; they have instead taken advantage of the fact that their opposition has not developed the First Amendment argument. As I said, I think that’s a very interesting question; I’ve certainly acknowledged it at least once, I think multiple times. [edit: here] > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure. And there’s a legitimate case that such laws should be unconstitutional. If he wants to make that case, I find it an interesting discussion. I haven’t weighed in on it because I have conflicting feelings about it. But it’s unfair to say nobody has acknowledged it as a question. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/150 "2017-03-01T15:35:31Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > I think it’s a form deception to call a class Human Sexuality and then delve into politics. In what universe has sexuality ever been divorced from politics? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/151 "2017-03-01T15:42:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > That rule seems to only apply to abridging constitutional free speech. It says “when engaged in outside a campus of those institutions.” So in other words, the sniff test is that the school can’t make a rule prohibiting speech that would otherwise be legal in the non-campus world. > > The professor expressly denied consent for recording, and that seems to be legal in California. Wouldn’t it only apply here if California’s two-party consent law is unconstitutional? > > Be gentle, I am a layperson. There are a number of cases that hold that the act of recording conduct of public officials, when intended to be used to disseminate information, is itself an exercise of speechy First Amendment rights So under that view, there is a general rule about two-party consent which is probably valid, but not in this particular specific set of facts. If it’s true that the First Amendment is implicated by recording the professor so you can publish the recording in order to disseminate information of public concern, then it’s probably true that the professor’s denial of consent has no force. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/152 "2017-03-01T15:48:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I said, I think that’s a very interesting question; I’ve certainly acknowledged it at least once, I think multiple times. > > [edit: here] > I haven’t weighed in on it because I have conflicting feelings about it. But it’s unfair to say nobody has acknowledged it as a question. I didn’t – I said no one’s addressed it, that no one’s acknowledged it _as a weakness they should address_. I agree you’ve acknowledged it exists as a question. But having acknowledged it as a question, you’ve then appeared to reach conclusions that don’t include analysis of the issue itself. In other words, I’m saying mere acknowledgment that the issue exists is insufficient. If it exists, but your conclusions don’t account for it, then your conclusions are suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/153 "2017-03-01T16:09:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I didn’t – I said no one’s addressed it, that no one’s acknowledged it _as a weakness they should address_. I agree you’ve acknowledged it exists as a question. But having acknowledged it as a question, you’ve then appeared to reach conclusions that don’t include analysis of the issue itself. In other words, I’m saying mere acknowledgment that the issue exists is insufficient. If it exists, but your conclusions don’t account for it, then your conclusions are suspect. Not sure how my conclusions are affected by it. My conclusions are that he was trying to suppress her free speech, that he technically broke a rule in doing so, that he got dinged for that technical rule-breaking, and that I’m okay with that. You might say that even though he was trying to suppress her free speech, and even though he technically broke a rule in doing so, there’s a chance that rule was not a constitutional rule, and therefore I shouldn’t be okay with his dinging. Is that your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/154 "2017-03-01T16:13:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are a number of cases that hold that the act of recording conduct of public officials, when intended to be used to disseminate information, is itself an exercise of speechy First Amendment rights > > So under that view, there is a general rule about two-party consent which is probably valid, but not in this particular specific set of facts. If it’s true that the First Amendment is implicated by recording the professor so you can publish the recording in order to disseminate information of public concern, then it’s probably true that the professor’s denial of consent has no force. Okay, I get that. But isn’t that only when dealing with a public official in a public space? Is a professor a public official? And is a classroom a public space? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/155 "2017-03-01T16:15:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not sure how my conclusions are affected by it. My conclusions are that he was trying to suppress her free speech, that he technically broke a rule in doing so, that he got dinged for that technical rule-breaking, and that I’m okay with that. > > You might say that even though he was trying to suppress her free speech, and even though he technically broke a rule in doing so, there’s a chance that rule was not a constitutional rule, and therefore I shouldn’t be okay with his dinging. Is that your argument? Almost. I’d say a better formulation would be, “Before you conclude you’re ok with his being dinged, you should be satisfied that the rule under which he’s dinged is a valid (i.e., constitutional) one.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/156 "2017-03-01T16:18:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Okay, I get that. But isn’t that only when dealing with a public official in a public space? > > Is a professor a public official? And is a classroom a public space? A professor teaching at a public school is generally considered a public official for these types of inquiries. The question of whether the classroom space is public or not is a closer one. I can make an argument for either side. I don’t know what case law already exists to help the determination along. But remember the section of law I posted above in post 145: it says that a student can’t be punished for doing in a classroom an act that if done in public would be protected First Amendment conduct. So I don’t think I agree that the classroom as public space question is pivotal. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/157 "2017-03-01T16:22:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But remember the section of law I posted above in post 145: it says that a student can’t be punished for doing in a classroom an act that if done in public would be protected First Amendment conduct. So I don’t think I agree that the classroom as public space question is pivotal. It doesn’t say in public, it says off-campus. If the student recorded the professor off-campus in a non-public space without her consent, he would be breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/158 "2017-03-01T16:33:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > It doesn’t say in public, it says off-campus. If the student recorded the professor off-campus in a non-public space without her consent, he would be breaking the law. Very true! Ok, I agree: it’s important to determine if a classroom is a public space. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/159 "2017-03-01T16:40:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Almost. I’d say a better formulation would be, “Before you conclude you’re ok with his being dinged, you should be satisfied that the rule under which he’s dinged is a valid (i.e., constitutional) one.” If I sat on a jury, I’d hold myself to that standard. On a messageboard, I hold myself to a lower standard: if someone acts awfully and gets hoisted by their own petard, I’m okay with that, even if the precise mechanism for petard-hoisting isn’t a mechanism I favor. I’m chaotic good in this respect :). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503/160 "2017-03-01T17:15:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Very true! > > Ok, I agree: it’s important to determine if a classroom is a public space. I posted this in #35, but two party consent in CA doesn’t apply in the classroom. [Evens v. Superior Court](http://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/4th/77/320.html) Ed Code says that a student who engages in surreptitious recording is only subject to disciplinary action not a criminal penalty and taken in conjunction with the ed code you cited I would say no disciplinary action may be taken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-write-a-letter-of-apology-to-a-professor/780503.md?page=9)