# Wouldn't striking down the health care reform bill effectively GUARANTEE a single-payer system? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371 "2012-05-18T22:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/41 "2012-06-13T21:28:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It really depends on how SCOTUS rules. If they narrowly rule against the mandate, but leave the rest, it creates a situation where insurance companies are required to insure old, sick people without the requiring young, healthy people to subsidize them. This will bankrupt the insurance industry, leaving only the government to provide full on socialized health care insurance. Unless as **John Mace** said, you reinstate the mandate as a tax. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/42 "2012-06-13T21:38:24Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Unless as **John Mace** said, you reinstate the mandate as a tax. If Obama want to be a real prick about it, he could veto any changes to the remaining law, drive the insurance companies into bankruptcy, and force Congress into single payer healthcare. Unless they would rather have no health insurance at all. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/43 "2012-06-13T21:49:32Z")
It’s absolutely amazing to me that the entire argument against the mandate has really just boiled down to semantics. I mean, it’s my understanding that if the mandate had clearly been labeled as a “tax” that it would be unquestionably constitutional, yet instead the government argues in favor of it being a “penalty.” It’s collected by the friggin’ IRS for crying out loud, so wtf else could it be? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/44 "2012-06-13T21:54:23Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > It’s absolutely amazing to me that the entire argument against the mandate has really just boiled down to semantics. I mean, it’s my understanding that if the mandate had clearly been labeled as a “tax” that it would be unquestionably constitutional, yet instead the government argues in favor of it being a “penalty.” It’s collected by the friggin’ IRS for crying out loud, so wtf else could it be? :smack: A sneaky way to get money from the populace without having to call it a tax? But I think your problem is with Obama himself, who claimed up and down that the mandate was NOT a tax. [As you can see here.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAmtNCtdWeo) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/45 "2012-06-16T17:46:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If Obama want to be a real prick about it, he could veto any changes to the remaining law, drive the insurance companies into bankruptcy, and force Congress into single payer healthcare. Unless they would rather have no health insurance at all. The insurance companies are already in a death spiral, that is why they (kindof) supported the ACA. People who are healthy abandon insurance leaving only the sick, which drives up prices and causes more people to leave insurance. I think large companies tend to self insure now instead of relying on third party insurance carriers. They save more money that way. Insurance companies are going bankrupt as it is. The sad part is if the law is overturned millions of Americans will suffer unnecessarily over the next 10-15 years before we try health reform again. I think congress would choose no health care over single payer. Even the dems never gave single payer a spot at the table to discuss the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/46 "2012-06-16T23:19:16Z")
Welp, if you wanted to read into [comments made by Ruth Bader Ginsburg](http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/us/scotus-ginsburg-health-care/index.html) concerning the upcoming ruling and the nature of dissents, the health care law’s going down. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/47 "2012-06-16T23:36:18Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Welp, if you wanted to read into [comments made by Ruth Bader Ginsburg](http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/us/scotus-ginsburg-health-care/index.html) concerning the upcoming ruling and the nature of dissents, the health care law’s going down. I didn’t see what would lead us to believe Ginsburg was among the dissenters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/48 "2012-06-17T17:32:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: > > (Hey anyone know if there’s a way to enlarge this, to the size of the sun?) It’s the truth. The fact your post contains no actual argument, just a retarded 6 year old level of wit comment, is evidence you know this. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/49 "2012-06-17T18:02:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > That’s the problem. Conservatives like you WANT AMERICANS TO SUFFER if they’re not perfect, or have bad luck. > > You personally want Americans to die, for not being the best accountants. What an evil place to be. In a meritocracy, accountancy is the _sine qua non_ of survival, which is after all a kind of success. That’s why I’m not a meritocrat. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/50 "2012-06-17T18:40:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I didn’t see what would lead us to believe Ginsburg was among the dissenters. Yeah, there’s nothing in there to say that the law is going down. Hell, there’s nothing in there to say anything about the proceedings, really. The fact that she says there is going to be “sharp disagreement” due to the rulings could go either way; if the mandate or the law falls, there are going to be huge disagreements between the administration and other supporters, but if it’s upheld there will likely be even _more_ disagreements amongst everybody else, as the law is still largely unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/51 "2012-06-17T21:35:57Z")
Well, I _did_ say “if you want to read into [them].” 🙂 > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I didn’t see what would lead us to believe Ginsburg was among the dissenters. I think the logic is that the tenor of the comment is, “well, I couldn’t convince enough of my colleagues of my POV, so I hope my/our dissent shapes future legislative action along the lines of what was struck down.” > [@2ManyTacos](#): > > Yeah, there’s nothing in there to say that the law is going down. Hell, there’s nothing in there to say anything about the proceedings, really. The fact that she says there is going to be “sharp disagreement” due to the rulings could go either way; if the mandate or the law falls, there are going to be huge disagreements between the administration and other supporters, but if it’s upheld there will likely be even _more_ disagreements amongst everybody else, as the law is still largely unpopular. Huh, didn’t think of it that way. The blog post I found the link in interpreted the “sharp disagreement” as coming from _in the Court_, but looking at the article again, I see the relevant quote has nothing attached to it that would confirm that context. ---
**Author:** ![onecut39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a183cd/32.png) [@onecut39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/onecut39)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/52 "2012-06-18T17:34:46Z")
The solution is so simple. Medicare for all and tax to pay for it. It would be a huge stimulus for the economy freeing business from the constantly escalating prices. It would free up individuals so they could look for jobs rather than health insurance policies. Hell we could even placate the insurance companies by allowing them to issue supplemental policies as they do now for medicare recipients. Such supplements would even allow the poor little rich guys the ability not to stand in line with a poor person. It would be lots cheaper than what we have now. (check out how insurance any insurance pool works) What’s not to like? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/53 "2012-06-18T22:20:29Z")
> [@onecut39](#): > > The solution is so simple. Medicare for all and tax to pay for it. It would be a huge stimulus for the economy freeing business from the constantly escalating prices. It would free up individuals so they could look for jobs rather than health insurance policies. > > Hell we could even placate the insurance companies by allowing them to issue supplemental policies as they do now for medicare recipients. > > Such supplements would even allow the poor little rich guys the ability not to stand in line with a poor person. > > It would be lots cheaper than what we have now. (check out how insurance any insurance pool works) > > What’s not to like? It won’t happen on the federal level anytime soon. On a state by state level, yeah. I think it is realistic over the next 10-15 years. Medicare for all saves a lot of money over traditional medical coverage. I think medicare for all would save something like $400 billion a year on the federal level. Tons of studies in a wide variety of states have found 10-30% savings on health care by medicare for all. I tend to hope/think that financial considerations will play a big role in passing meaningful health reform on the state level. Passing health reform isn’t just about feeling a desire to help the uninsured. Properly managed health reform can and will save trillions, putting states that pass it at an advantage over states that do not when it comes to economic growth and balancing their budgets. But due to anti-statist ideology and the politics of resentment I don’t see it passing on the national level anytime soon. However I hope the next 20 years is the golden age of state health reform. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/54 "2012-06-19T18:35:21Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It won’t happen on the federal level anytime soon. On a state by state level, yeah. I think it is realistic over the next 10-15 years. Medicare for all saves a lot of money over traditional medical coverage. I think medicare for all would save something like $400 billion a year on the federal level. Tons of studies in a wide variety of states have found 10-30% savings on health care by medicare for all. I tend to hope/think that financial considerations will play a big role in passing meaningful health reform on the state level. Passing health reform isn’t just about feeling a desire to help the uninsured. Properly managed health reform can and will save trillions, putting states that pass it at an advantage over states that do not when it comes to economic growth and balancing their budgets. > > But due to anti-statist ideology and the politics of resentment I don’t see it passing on the national level anytime soon. However I hope the next 20 years is the golden age of state health reform. The problem with leaving it up to the states, though, is that the majority of them don’t want to address health care reform at all. The bottom line is that there will almost always be bigger fish to fry than health care, so any state going in that direction will have had to have made a proactive decision to reform its health care system. The good thing about the federal law is that it has pushed a number of the more liberal states to pursue health reform, but the red states have been dragging their feet the entire time (if doing anything at all). I think that my state (CA) will continue to pursue health care reform in the event of either an ACA takedown or severe crippling - largely because we’ve invested so much into implementation already - but given our $16 billion budget deficit, any meaningful reform in the absence of government aid will become exceedingly difficult. Maybe we’ll resurrect our single-payer bill again; fuck if I know lol. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/55 "2012-06-21T04:50:34Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If you are 22 and decide to save a few hundred bucks a month by not buying health insurance, and then next year you get skin cancer and can never get health insurance again, well that was your own stupid choice. You knew (or should have known) the risks and you took them. > > I’m not sure how far we should go in a free society to protect people from their own stupid choices. Actually that 22 year old could get health insurance and then cancer and still not be covered the way insurance companies currently operate. Assuming the 22 year old wasn’t in a company plan, the insurer would simply dump the insured. Happens every day. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rLBF-67h58I/hqdefault.jpg "Breast Cancer Victims Dumped By Insurance Co") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLBF-67h58I) [http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-19/politics/begala.health.care\_1\_health-insurance-health-care-coverage?\_s=PM:POLITICS](http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-19/politics/begala.health.care_1_health-insurance-health-care-coverage?_s=PM:POLITICS) > **[Mother Speaks Out on Insurance Giant CIGNA’s Denial of Healthcare to...](https://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/1/mother_speaks_out_on_insurance_giant)** > > Stacie Ritter’s twin daughters were diagnosed with cancer at the age of four. Their insurance provider, CIGNA, denied them coverage even though they had been covered by the family’s former insurer. The incident marked just the latest chapter in the... It’s even a business for this firm: [http://www.jrobertdavis.com/legal/insurance-bad-faith/](http://www.jrobertdavis.com/legal/insurance-bad-faith/) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/56 "2012-06-22T21:26:51Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > How about some born with a per-exisitng condition? How about someone who didn’t have health insurance due to poverty? > > How many innocents would your ideology needlessly murder? > > That’s the problem. Conservatives like you WANT AMERICANS TO SUFFER if they’re not perfect, or have bad luck. > > You personally want Americans to die, for not being the best accountants. What an evil place to be. > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > It’s the truth. The fact your post contains no actual argument, just a retarded 6 year old level of wit comment, is evidence you know this. I usually don’t moderate posts that are this old (almost three weeks and one week respectively), but you have been told many, many that this kind of commentary isn’t appropriate outside of The BBQ Pit. Knock it off or you are likely to get banned. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371/57 "2013-09-29T03:58:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t live in California, so I don’t really follow the events there. > > But California still has a 25/15 democratic majority in the senate. However the last attempt to pass single payer failed because it was 19/15 with 6 abstaining. > > Looking at wikipedia, the California state senate has almost always been 25/15 in favor of the democrats, at least for the last 10 years or so. So it isn’t like the makeup of the Califronia senate is changing drastically. > > [California State Senate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Senate) > > So yeah, the california democrats could pass single payer every session when they knew that governor Schwarzenegger was going to veto it. But now that they have a democratic governor the law can’t get the votes to pass the state senate, despite the fact that this was easy to achieve three separate times with a GOP governor who was going to veto it. Like I said, it sounds like pandering. I’ve heard the previous versions of single payer had no real funding mechanism. I don’t know if that is true, but if so it sounds like just passing an empty bill you know will not pass to win political points. Now that they actually can pass single payer since they have the governorship, they can’t get the votes (despite not having a problem doing this in the past). This is an old thread, but I found this article that verifies what I believed about california. It was all pandering. > **[Single Payer Up Against It in California – Single Payer Action](https://www.singlepayeraction.org/2013/02/19/single-payer-up-against-it-in-california/)** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-striking-down-the-health-care-reform-bill-effectively-guarantee-a-single-payer-system/622371.md?page=2)