# Wouldn't vote by mail disenfranchise more voters than any other method? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 6, 2020, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147 "2020-06-06T09:40:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/21 "2020-06-06T14:50:51Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > How do you know? You’ve started with a couple of assertions that you have provided no cites for: Right–the OP is just making things up. Because this is a fantasy make-believe thread, I’d like to point out that vote-by-mail will especially disenfranchise voters because the letter trolls, who live underneath every US Post Office, and who come up when postal workers aren’t looking, to grab letters and hoard them in their subterranean lairs, are particularly hungry for ballots. It’s their favorite food. They love the taste of printed matter which lists political party names. In reality, while we don’t know exactly how much mail is “lost,” I think it’s very likely that most mail that doesn’t get delivered is that which is incorrectly addressed. The only time in my life when I know for a fact that a letter sent to me didn’t arrive, it was because I myself did not provide the sender (in this case, the DMV), my apartment number. I cannot recall a single time when a pre-printed envelope I had sent to a utility or government agency just mysteriously did not arrive. On the other hand, I can recall many, many times when going to the polls was a major inconvenience in my workday, and several in which I nearly forgot to go. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/22 "2020-06-06T14:58:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Except the concern isn’t total numbers, unless you’re a Democrat who cares only that as many people vote as possible and isn’t worried about individual disenfranchisement at all. Which seems to be the case here. People keep telling you that in states were everyone votes by mail, this just isn’t a problem. No one has complained about "disenfranchisement’ based on lost ballots. Yes, occaisionally a ballot will get lost. And there are systems in place where that can be fixed very easily. The ballots go out two weeks before the election. If someone doesn’t get one, they get fix that. Then, returned ballots are logged in and you can check on line. Again, if there’s a problem, it can be fixed. This thread is the only place I’ve ever seen a complaint about disenfranchisement related to mail-in voting. And the OP is the only person in this thread who has that view. I think I can safely conclude it’s not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/23 "2020-06-06T15:04:46Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I vote by mail in Colorado. Have done so for years. It’s great. You get to take your time and do it as you please. Make wise choices. Then, I don’t mail it in, I am able to drop it off in specific vote mail boxes at a convenient/location when I can. They are administered by the County Clerk. And are at libraries county buildings and a few other locations. We now have security cameras on them. > > Safe, convenient and secure. I suppose you could vandalize the thing, or run it over with your car or something, but voting by ‘mail’ is much, much better. This is how it is in Washington state, too, since 2008. Nobody is REQUIRED to vote by mail; there are still in-person options available. And ballots can be dropped off at designated sites, or mailed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/24 "2020-06-06T15:11:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > While there are no firm estimates of how many voters are disenfranchised by voter ID laws, the estimates we have are pretty small. What’s not small is the % of mail lost by USPS, which would of course include ballots. The fact USPS loses mail isn’t something people don’t know. And yet the question is never brought up when Democrats display their enthusiasm for voting by mail. Multiple cites needed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/25 "2020-06-06T15:20:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Multiple cites needed. I would say **adaher** is just mailing it in but… ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/26 "2020-06-06T15:50:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But again, that’s not what Democrats have argued about voter disenfranchisement at all. This is more motivated reasoning. If there’s more voting overall, it doesn’t matter if more are disenfranchised? I recently cast my ballot by mail in Pennsylvania for the Democratic Primary. I received an email confirmation telling me that my ballot was received by the elections office. Seems to me like that’s a pretty good way to safeguard against missing mail. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/27 "2020-06-06T15:58:15Z")
Had my ballot not been received, I could have requested another ballot. And I could have dropped it off at a designated polling place instead of through the mail. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/28 "2020-06-06T19:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Here’s what the “Go Postal” crowd doesn’t tell you: In 2016, 512,696 mail-in ballots—over half a million—were simply rejected, not counted. That’s official, from the federal Elections Assistance Commission (EAC). > > But that’s just the tip of the ballot-berg of uncounted mail-in votes. A study by MIT, Losing Votes by Mail, puts the total loss of mail-in votes at a breathtaking 22%. > > Move to 80% mail-in voting and 25 million will lose their vote. > > And not just anyone’s mail-in ballots are dumped in the electoral trashcan. Overwhelmingly, those junked are ballots mailed by poorer, younger, non-white Americans. From [Greg Palast](https://www.gregpalast.com/rush-to-vote-by-mail-could-cost-dems-the-election/), a journalist who has worked for the Guardian, the BBC, &c., and has specialised in American elections since 2000, when he pioneered reporting on voter suppression. He provides several ways in which absentee voting leads to voter suppression, and examples of when these ways have actually been used, and states which will likely do the same in the upcoming election. Trump can only win through voter suppression. He won through voter suppression four years ago. On that occasion he also claimed to believe the election would be rigged against him. I don’t think we really want a repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/29 "2020-06-06T19:11:34Z")
I’ve been voting by mail for 16 years and I’ve never failed to receive my ballot in a timely manner. Once i send my ballot in, I can check the state website to verify that it was received and counted. The only issue I’ve ever had is one time when my signature was off and they sent me a letter asking for a new signature. The OP is a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/30 "2020-06-06T19:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > But that’s just the tip of the ballot-berg of uncounted mail-in votes. A study by MIT, Losing Votes by Mail, puts the total loss of mail-in votes at a breathtaking 22%. That is breathtaking and I don’t believe it for a second. We know in Washington and Oregon that simply is not happening. So, I did a little digging > [@](#): > > “…up to 3.9 million absentee ballots were requested but not received by voters in the 2008 presidential election; 2.9 million ballots that were transmitted to voters requesting them were > not returned for counting; and 800,000 returned absentee ballots were rejected for counting. > Thus, 35.5 million requests for absentee ballots led to 27.9 million mail-in ballots being counted. > This suggests that 7.6 million absentee ballots—21% of all requests—leaked out of the system > before counting even began.” 3.9 million didn’t get absentee ballots. Not a problem when everyone is mailed a ballot and you don’t have t request one. (and you can get another one if for some reason yours has been “lost.” 2.9 people got ballots but didn’t vote. That happens. A lot of people don’t go to the polls on election day too. That’s not a “loss of mail in votes.” 800,000 absentee ballots were rejected. I’m not sure why this happened. Some states may not handle mail-in voting very well. Maybe they were properly rejected and this isn’t a problem either. [Turns out that according to one study 32.1% of all rejected domestic absentee ballots were rejected because they were not received on time or missed the deadline. That seems fair.] In any case, it seems like more of a problem with the “absentee ballot” system than the “100% vote by mail system.” ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/31 "2020-06-06T19:18:30Z")
aa ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/32 "2020-06-06T19:35:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Except the concern isn’t total numbers, unless you’re a Democrat who cares only that as many people vote as possible and isn’t worried about individual disenfranchisement at all. Which seems to be the case here. I trust you are aware that voter ID laws are specifically designed to disenfranchise poor and minority voters, right? Mail-in voting does not appear to favor either party, so even if there are some lost ballots it should not affect the results. Plus, in California everyone gets a ballot, and you can either mail it or deposit it in a box, which is what I did in the primary. Your UK numbers are for random letters. Ballots can be treated specially, and are going to specific addresses in big batches. How many tax returns get lost, the ones that are mailed? Not a big number I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/33 "2020-06-06T19:44:07Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > 3.9 million didn’t get absentee ballots. Not a problem when everyone is mailed a ballot and you don’t have t request one. (and you can get another one if for some reason yours has been “lost.” > > 2.9 people got ballots but didn’t vote. That happens. A lot of people don’t go to the polls on election day too. That’s not a “loss of mail in votes.” > > 800,000 absentee ballots were rejected. I’m not sure why this happened. Some states may not handle mail-in voting very well. Maybe they were properly rejected and this isn’t a problem either. [Turns out that according to one study 32.1% of all rejected domestic absentee ballots were rejected because they were not received on time or missed the deadline. That seems fair.] > > In any case, it seems like more of a problem with the “absentee ballot” system than the “100% vote by mail system.” Some more stuff wrong with that cite. He mentions mail lost in direct mail campaigns. That’s happened for years, and no doubt comes from them being treated as second class mail. Wouldn’t happen with ballots. Plus, you can hardly count rules meant to discourage mail-in voting, like notarization, as a reason against mail-in voting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/34 "2020-06-06T21:31:26Z")
The point of mail-in voting is that it’s offering people an alternative. Some people have difficulty going to a polling station. So if the only way to vote is at a polling station, they won’t get to vote at all. An alternative which works 99.9% of the time is better than no alternative at all. ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/35 "2020-06-06T21:47:05Z")
More people get lost on their way to polling places than the USPS loses ballots. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/36 "2020-06-06T22:01:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s certainly more than are disenfranchised by an ID requirement. Given that a 2012 study indicates that 7% of Americans age 17+ do not have a photo ID, I think that you are likely mistaken. Probably not surprisingly, requiring a photo ID to vote would disproportionately disenfranchise non-whites, and the poor: - Only 5% of whites do not have a photo ID, while 13% of blacks and 10% of Hispanics do not - 12% of those with household incomes of under $25K per year don’t have a photo ID Source: [Voter ID - Project Vote](https://www.projectvote.org/issues/voting-policy/voter-id/type/publication/) Download the “Americans With Photo ID: A Breakdown of Demographic Characteristics” PDF for details of the study. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/37 "2020-06-07T00:14:57Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > From [Greg Palast](https://www.gregpalast.com/rush-to-vote-by-mail-could-cost-dems-the-election/), a journalist who has worked for the Guardian, the BBC, &c., and has specialised in American elections since 2000, when he pioneered reporting on voter suppression. > > He provides several ways in which absentee voting leads to voter suppression, and examples of when these ways have actually been used, and states which will likely do the same in the upcoming election. > > Trump can only win through voter suppression. He won through voter suppression four years ago. On that occasion he also claimed to believe the election would be rigged against him. I don’t think we really want a repeat. Some ex journalist website is hardly a cite. I call BS. Adaher is just voicing “concern” over a hypothetical made up BS. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/38 "2020-06-07T00:51:06Z")
**Wouldn’t vote by mail disenfranchise more voters than any other method?** Any other method of what? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/39 "2020-06-07T00:56:15Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > This is how it is in Washington state, too, since 2008. Nobody is REQUIRED to vote by mail; there are still in-person options available. And ballots can be dropped off at designated sites, or mailed. Exactly this. I have never put my ballot in a mailbox but have always dropped it off at the ballot box over by a park&ride (there are nice people there at 7:30pm on Election Day helping the stream of cars dropping off their ballots). The instructions are kind of odd. You have to sign the outside of the ballot envelope and then put that inside the second envelope. But it is really not all that complicated – a person who cannot figure it out maybe should not be voting. Comparing all-maii-in voting to difficulties with absentee ballots is specious at best. If everyone is voting that way, the system is built to work that way and almost certainly works better than the partial absentee ballot system does, because it is tuned to. The only real disenfranchisement concern would have to be homeless people, but I think there is some sort of work-around for that. (Though, how do they figure out what district you should vote in if you do not have a fixed address?) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147/40 "2020-06-07T02:02:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point of mail-in voting is that it’s offering people an alternative. > > Some people have difficulty going to a polling station. So if the only way to vote is at a polling station, they won’t get to vote at all. An alternative which works 99.9% of the time is better than no alternative at all. Yep, even here in CA, unless there is a “covid” reason, you can vote in person. It’s just that everyone CAN vote by mail, if they should so choose. **adaher** - can you explain why you are (apparently) against allowing this\* choice\*? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wouldnt-vote-by-mail-disenfranchise-more-voters-than-any-other-method/855147.md?page=3)