# Wow! Money for kids and seniors embezzled into Air America! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369 "2005-07-27T06:31:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/61 "2005-07-27T21:34:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now that I can wholeheartedly agree with. I’m not so sure. Air America is under an obligation to act ethically and legally, sure: but I’m not convinced that these obligations require them to repay the money immediately. Ethically, they might make a case that (legal concerns to the side) the deal benefited the Boys and Girls Club. I don’t know enough details of the case to say whether that argument holds water; but if the BAGC is receiving interest from endowment-style funds and is receiving free publicity, then Air America might well argue that both sides are benefiting. (By “endowment-style funds,” I mean the funds that nonprofits often set aside for capital projects or emergencies, funds that won’t be spent in the current fiscal year). Legally, they’re required to abide by the law surrounding such loans. If a court tells them to repay the funds immediately, then I agree that they’re required to pay them back immediately. Short of such an order, I see no such obligation. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/62 "2005-07-27T21:36:10Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > It seems to me that this is more akin to the Coingate scandal in Ohio than the Karl Rove felonious disclosure of classified information and degredation of our vital security interests. I must politely disagree. Coingate is a serious scandal with, apparently, genuine embezzlement - as in, the guy managing the coin fund is alleged to have transferred the state’s money into his personal bank accounts. And Ohio can kiss that money goodbye. Compared to Coingate, this is a triviality: no allegation that the money’s been diverted for personal use; no claim that the money’s gone. Just that it shouldn’t have been loaned to Air America. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/63 "2005-07-27T21:36:29Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Air America’s parent company, Piquant LLC, just released a statement not denying the loan, but saying it isn’t their responsibility, since they assumed ownership of Air America in 2004. If there is any money owed to the club, therefore, it is owed under the old holding organization, Progress Media, that Evan Cohen helped start. That organization is defunct, and has left a lot of creditors holding their hats. That IS hinky: sounds like it’s even less accurate, then, to say that the funds were embezzled into Air America. I’m no expert on financial law, and I’ll leave it to the experts to delineate Piquant’s legal responsibility here. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/64 "2005-07-27T21:42:04Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Here’s where it gets really hinky. > > Air America’s parent company, Piquant LLC, just released a statement not denying the loan, but saying it isn’t their responsibility, since they assumed ownership of Air America in 2004. If there is any money owed to the club, therefore, it is owed under the old holding organization, Progress Media, that Evan Cohen helped start. That organization is defunct, and has left a lot of creditors holding their hats. So Air America wasn’t a party to this loan, either before or after the transfer? Then WTF is this thread about, anyway? You’re basically stepping into a matter that the lawyers will need to unravel, and pointing a very accusing finger at a tangentially involved party. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/65 "2005-07-27T21:46:52Z")
Hardly tangentially involved. Progress Media was set up to get Air America onto the air. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/66 "2005-07-27T22:51:26Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Hardly tangentially involved. Progress Media was set up to get Air America onto the air. And ended with Cohen’s departure: > **[Air America (radio network)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_Radio)** > > Air America (formerly Air America Radio and Air America Media) was an American radio network specializing in progressive talk radio. It was on the air from March 2004 to January 2010. > The network was founded as a left wing alternative to counter talk radio with a right wing perspective. Air America featured programs with monologues by on-air personalities, guest interviews, call-ins from listeners, and news reports. Several shows had million plus audiences, and multiple weekday presenters cont... > [@](#): > > Air America was started as part of Progress Media, which said it had amassed $30 million in venture capital prior to its debut, a claim which later turned out to be untrue (only $6 million was initially collected). Two individuals from Guam, Rex Sorensen and Evan Montvel Cohen, were involved in raising the capital but denied any wrongdoing. [2] Cohen had an unusual history for his position in a progressive-left radio network since he was a Republican political operative in Guam and former chief of staff for Republican Governor Tommy Tanaka. [3] Cohen dismissed concerns by saying he was a committed “progressive” and that Republicans in Guam “are left of Paul Wellstone.” It was reported that Cohen had unpaid business debts in Guam, although Cohen denies this. [4] Tommy Tanaka pleaded guilty to corruption charges in 2003. > > … > > As part of a reorganization, investors in Progress Media bought the assets of that company, creating its current owner, Piquant LLC. An important change which accompanied the reorganization was a decision to stop trying to buy radio stations, lease air time, or insist that stations carry all of the network’s programming. > > On February 28, 2005, a new CEO, Danny Goldberg, was named. Goldberg set a goal of getting the network in 90% of the country as soon as possible. Expansions early in his tenure included Austin, Texas and Dallas, Texas in March 2005, and a return to Chicago in May 2005. At a media conference in July 2005, Goldberg stated that Air America Radio would be on 75 stations as of August and that Air America News would be relaunched in September as a much more expansive operation to “provide news for our stations and beyond.” > > A documentary on the network’s rocky start and ultimate resurgence, Left of the Dial, premiered March 31, 2005 on HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/67 "2005-07-27T22:57:38Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > As for you, **Marley23** , why don’t you speak to the issues rather than shooting the messenger? You’re ignoring half of what I posted. I noted that the links you provided do not support your implication that Air America did anything wrong. The facts may not all be out there, but the facts I do see make me think your undisguised glee is misplaced. I called you on it, other posters on it, and your response has been a string of disingenuousness. > [@](#): > > After all, I rather doubt you thought much every day about deep cover and NOC lists, at least until an event made such things newsworthy. No, but I did think it was important for our intelligence agencies to do their job properly. 😉 **threemae** , Cohen is out of a job. Karl Rove still works for the President who promised to fire him. See a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/68 "2005-07-28T01:40:10Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Actually, MSNBC gave Phil Donahue a shot last year. He crashed and burned. The market for a liberal version of Limbaugh, et al, is just not there. Phil Donahue had the highest rated show on MSNBC when it was cancelled prior to the beginning of Operation Iraqi Fuckup. “Crashed and burned” my ass. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/69 "2005-07-28T02:27:40Z")
So far, this thread barely is enough to get a yawn out of me. My silly brain keeps repeating the phrase “so what”. Is this the best dirt you can find on those nasty scummy freedom hating libruls? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/70 "2005-07-28T03:44:31Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Better go back and get some new talking points. Just playing my part on the ideological stage as do we all, Hentor. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/71 "2005-07-28T03:46:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …if you want to measure by such uncomfortable yardsticks as GeeDub’s approval rating… (snip) No doubt you have a different preference for statistical analysis. Yes. I prefer the election results. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/72 "2005-07-28T03:59:15Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > One data point does not a trend make. Does anyone have AA’s ratings numbers for the other markets they’re in? You can use the link to check any radio market in the country. You just have to know the call letters of the radio station in question. > [@rjung](#): > > Actually, let’s remember that Limbaugh _et al_ had ten years to build up their market. Perhaps it’d be more accurate to compare Air America’s first year with Rush’s first year…? That’s a good point, rjung. However, I think there are a couple of factors that still need to be considered. First, The political climate is much more stratified now than it was in the early 90’s when Rush started. Therefore, I think people will more easily find and be open to a radio network that reflects their political tastes today than they were 15 years ago. Also, you can’t compare the overall numbers of the entire station to the three hours of Limbaughs numbers. The numbers I used were overall ratings for both stations. To get a true comparison, one would need to add up the combined ratings of the “left” shows and compare them to the “right” shows. And it would need to be done on a national level, because of the different political tastes in different parts of the country. This leads me to a central point in my dismissal of the viability of Air America. If they are only pulling a 1.0 in New York, the largest radio market in the country, perhaps the most liberal behind San Francisco and with a large politically aware population…they will never make it in other less hospitable markets. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/73 "2005-07-28T04:03:21Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I’m disagreeing. It’s there, it just has to be different in a way that hasn’t been tried yet. I can name one man who’s been… on the opposite side of the line, even if he doesn’t have a coherent political philosophy. His audience is bigger than all of the above combined. And his name is Howard Stern. > > Now, Howard’s been all over the political spectrum, over time, but since the Gulf War II, he’s been behaving as a liberal. Especially against the FCC. And that’s been good radio. > > Maybe that’s the trick? Being entertaining is definitely the key. But listeners have to be receptive to the overall message as well. Air America may survive if they can hang on long enough to build an audience…we’ll have to see. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/74 "2005-07-28T04:08:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Can you link to his ratings compared with those of conservative talk shows at the time? I’ve heard that he actually did OK, ratings-wise - not stellar, but as well as or better than stuff that was kept on. No, I can’t. Donahue was a huge name and high name recognition. I don’t know what he was paid, but it was probably in keeping with his recognizability to the public. When he didn’t pull the numbers they expected, they cut him loose. He might have suffered because of MSNBC running a distant third to CNN and FOX. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Perhaps, but if polls show that ~40% of Americans consider themselves conservative, and ~18% consider themselves liberal, there would still appear to be an untapped market, y’know? Perhaps. The right person hasn’t been found yet, and the TV people won’t wait long enough to let them build an audience before pulling the trigger. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Are they still having to “resort to these sort of things to raise cash,” or was that just back then? > > Just asking. Fair question. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/75 "2005-07-28T04:09:40Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > It looks to me like a bunch of people who don’t know beans about running a radio business decided to go into the radio business. The results are as expected. I completely agree. The product plays a role, but so does presentation and marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/76 "2005-07-28T04:59:19Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Perhaps. The right person hasn’t been found yet, and the TV people won’t wait long enough to let them build an audience before pulling the trigger. I’m hoping the [Young Turks](http://www.youngturk.com) will be picked up for a TV show. Their radio version is pretty popular (as shows on Sirius Left go) and entertaining, they have TV experience, and they’re much more reasonable than, say, Janeane Garofalo. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/77 "2005-07-28T05:02:08Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Being entertaining is definitely the key. But listeners have to be receptive to the overall message as well. Air America may survive if they can hang on long enough to build an audience…we’ll have to see. If it is continuing to expand, it would appear it’s not just hanging on. But we’ll see. I only listened a couple of times, and was forced to listen sometimes at a job and just couldn’t deal with it. Shouty talk radio is not my cup of tea. This place is. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/78 "2005-07-28T10:36:15Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > First, The political climate is much more stratified now than it was in the early 90’s when Rush started. Therefore, I think people will more easily find and be open to a radio network that reflects their political tastes today than they were 15 years ago. That is, assuming they venture into AM radio at all. Like I said before. > [@](#): > > This leads me to a central point in my dismissal of the viability of Air America. If they are only pulling a 1.0 in New York, the largest radio market in the country, perhaps the most liberal behind San Francisco and with a large politically aware population…they will never make it in other less hospitable markets. Howzat? I see that 1.0 ranks them seventh of 12 AM stations in NYC. What’s so bad about that, and why does it say they won’t make it anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/79 "2005-07-28T12:39:33Z")
New York is the perfect incubator for Air America. As I said, the market is large enough that even a niche demographic can be large enough to make the advertising rates profitable. However, the options narrow as the markets get smaller. In a city with four AM stations instead of 12, it’s a harder decision to sign on. When you get down to cities with one or two AM stations, you’ll be hard pressed to get someone to give up Limbaugh and company to go with Air America. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369/80 "2005-07-28T19:54:06Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > New York is the perfect incubator for Air America. As I said, the market is large enough that even a niche demographic can be large enough to make the advertising rates profitable. > > However, the options narrow as the markets get smaller. In a city with four AM stations instead of 12, it’s a harder decision to sign on. When you get down to cities with one or two AM stations, you’ll be hard pressed to get someone to give up Limbaugh and company to go with Air America. How far back into the boonies do you have to be for there to be only one or two AM stations?! I doubt Air America is worried about making it there for awhile yet. First you start with the cities that are big enough to support a major-league ball club of some sort, and pretty much all of them have a half-dozen or more AM stations, I betcha. Plus, remember that in the smaller cities, it’s a lot cheaper to _buy_ an AM station than in NYC, which cuts your costs down, so you can afford a much smaller audience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-money-for-kids-and-seniors-embezzled-into-air-america/314369.md?page=5)