# WOW! Romney says he paid at least 13%. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 17, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745 "2012-08-17T03:49:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/41 "2012-08-17T16:00:19Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I don’t agree with the rich paying less in tax than middle class or poor, but if I was rich and had accountants working for me I’d take advantage of every deduction and loophole I could too. Assuming he hasn’t broken any laws what the fuck is the problem, what kind of idiot would pay more taxes than they legally have to? > > People who are mad at the rich for not paying a higher percentage in taxes should really be mad at congress and/or the whole lobbying and campaign finance system. The problem is that mere legality is not the only issue here, much as apologists for the status quo would like it to be. The larger issue is whether the laws that such people as Mitt Romney take advantage of are themselves equitable or good for society. I suspect that most people don’t know just exactly what variety and extent of creative tax shenanigans a guy like Mitt Romney is allowed to get away with – tax write-offs for dressage horses are probably only the showy, laugh-behind-your-hand tip of that particular rotten iceberg. And then, if people were to learn what Romney and others like him are legally allowed to do to earn their low tax rates, will they think that’s right or good? Will they think it’s fair? Might they start wondering just who the hell writes these laws in the first place, and for whose benefit? Might they start questioning the honesty of the whole “job creator” justification for keeping the basic tax rate laws where they are now or making them even more regressive? That’s the real house of cards Romney is trying to keep from falling, I suspect. It’s what he’s allowed to do, legally, to keep his tax rate very low, that the average working person would resent or find instinctively inequitable. I can’t begin to guess the exact shape of what that might be, but the 2009 amnesty on earnings from certain formerly-illegal off-shore tax havens is the obvious first thing to wonder about, particularly since the forms he left out of his otherwise-released 2010 return also had to do with off-shore accounts. Did he apply for that amnesty and get it, figuring he could stonewall on ever releasing his 2009 returns without paying an electoral price, just as he’s done successfully in the past? I dunno, maybe. Maybe there’s nothing anywhere any worse than what he’s already released. But if that’s the case, then at this point he must be the stupidest candidate ever to run for high office in my life time, because the longer he continues to refuse what looks like an entirely reasonable request for more returns, the more it looks like he does in fact have something to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/42 "2012-08-17T16:03:01Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > The stupid is strong with you isn’t it. The humor (and punctuation) is weak with you, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/43 "2012-08-17T16:03:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Funfact: Drunky Smurf is so uneducated he doesn’t understand how a progressive income tax works. In other words: the GOP base. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/44 "2012-08-17T16:06:29Z")
Just in the terms of a gamble, it makes sense for him. “I may not want to run in 2012, I may want to run and get defeated trying for the Republican nomination, I could die by then, but RIGHT NOW I’ve got a chance for some tax amnesty that will save me serious IRS problems. I’ll cross the bridge when I have to–bullshit my way, divert attention, change the subject, catch Obama in a tax scandal, whatever.” Well, he’s on the bridge right now. I’m hoping to keep him from getting to the other wide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/45 "2012-08-17T16:08:42Z")
I don’t care about him releasing any more tax info. And I don’t care that he paid 13%, assuming it’s all legal. As others have said, though, the real issue is that he supports things like long term cap gains tax rates on “[carried interest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carried_interest#United_States)” for hedge fund managers that allows them pay ridiculously low rates on huge sums of income. Someone needs to nail him on this in the debates and not get bogged down in whether or not he released “x” number of years of tax returns. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/46 "2012-08-17T16:21:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t care about him releasing any more tax info. And I don’t care that he paid 13%, **assuming it’s all legal**. > > As others have said, though, the real issue is that he supports things like long term cap gains tax rates on “[carried interest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carried_interest#United_States)” for hedge fund managers that allows them pay ridiculously low rates on huge sums of income. Someone needs to nail him on this in the debates **and not get bogged down in whether or not he released “x” number of years of tax returns**. How are we supposed to know whether it’s legal or not if he doesn’t release the returns. We don’t even know what **it** is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/47 "2012-08-17T16:26:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How are we supposed to know whether it’s legal or not if he doesn’t release the returns. We don’t even know what **it** is. I willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t do anything illegal on his tax returns. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/48 "2012-08-17T16:33:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > This is what the Obama campaign should make itself about. > > "Uh, folks, I think Gov’ner, uh, Romney is probably telling the truth when he claims that he pays about, uh, 13% in taxes every year. Let’s stop hounding him over releasing more of shis tax returns–if you believe him when he says he’s paid 13 %, then you’re satsified, and if you don’t, then you’re probably going to be able to find some flaws in the returns, as he and his wife claim. But the real question is–do you really want to live in a country where millionaires and billionaires pay about a third the tax rates that all the rest of us pay? Is that fair? Is it right? Does it make sense? > > To Gov’ner Romney, it does makes sense, it does seem right, and he certainly isn’t going to do anything to change a system that’s done so well by him–but I will. I will look for revenue, as I’ve been doing, to help us get out of the hole dug by Republicans who don’t believe in taxing the rich equally. Gov’rnor Romney thinks he’s the solution. He’s not. He’s our problem, and he’s proud of being a millstone around our necks. Vote for him if you want rich folks to pay 13% and run for President on that basis, but vote for me if you want a fairer, more equitable tax system.“” So, Mr. President. It seems that you believe that Mr. Romney did nothing illegal, he just took advantage of the tax code like all very rich people do. Two questions: while you may not be in Romney’s wealth category, you make millions of dollars in income and according to your tax return you use the tax code to reduce your overall rate quite a bit. Was that also “wrong”? If not how is what you did different? Second question, given that it is the tax code that allows wealthy people to reduce their overall tax rate, as you yourself have done, and you no doubt have been aware of this, what have you done during your administration to change the tax code to make it more “fair” , as you see it? I remind you that you had two years when Democrats controlled all three branches and you could have passed whatever you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/49 "2012-08-17T16:34:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How are we supposed to know whether it’s legal or not if he doesn’t release the returns. We don’t even know what **it** is. The natural thing to do is to assume that since he’s not in jail or under investigation that he did nothing illegal. No? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/50 "2012-08-17T16:37:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The natural thing to do is to assume that since he’s not in jail or under investigation that he did nothing illegal. No? Not if he took advantage of the amnesty. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/51 "2012-08-17T16:38:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I remind you that you had two years when Democrats controlled all three branches and you could have passed whatever you wanted. How many times must this be debunked? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/52 "2012-08-17T16:41:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I remind you that you had two years when Democrats controlled all three branches and **you could have passed whatever you wanted.** I remind you that that was never the case. Asserting that it was only makes you look like an idiot. Democrats don’t move in lockstep like Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/53 "2012-08-17T16:42:57Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Fuck Romney, his greedy fucked-up, ultra-rich supporters who are addicted to avarice and can never have enough money, and the people that they have duped into thinking that by making the ultra-rich more rich at their expense that they are part of the in-crowd. Is your condemnation reserved for rich Republicans who use the tax code to reduce their over rate? Or do you extend it to rich Democrats, as well? Do you know what rate Obama paid? Did he use the code to reduce his overall rate? How about people like George Soros, John Kerry _and_ his wife, Nancy Pelosi? Oh, how about John Corzine? Let’s forget the little fact that he should be heading to jail but instead he’s considering starting a hedge fund. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/54 "2012-08-17T16:47:42Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I remind you that that was never the case. Asserting that it was only makes you look like an idiot. Democrats don’t move in lockstep like Republicans. Ha. You’re desperate for cover on this. I’m giving the Dems the benefit of the doubt in assuming that if Obama put forth a sensible plan that would correct the tax code in favor of the people that _at least_ every Dem would have been on board. Even so, that goes to why a bill might have been passed or not. Before we get to that, we have to evaluate all the work Obama did in pushing congress to fix the tax code so that super rich guys like Romney and super-duper Rich guys like Soros pay their “fair share”. So, what might that be? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/55 "2012-08-17T16:54:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t do anything illegal on his tax returns. Why would you give him the benefit of the doubt? > [@magellan01](#): > > The natural thing to do is to assume that since he’s not in jail or under investigation that he did nothing illegal. No? **AlienVessels** answers this in one way. I’ll ask where you got the idea that all people who commit crimes are investigated or go to jail? > [@AlienVessels](#): > > Not if he took advantage of the amnesty. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/56 "2012-08-17T16:57:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Second question, given that it is the tax code that allows wealthy people to reduce their overall tax rate, as you yourself have done, and you no doubt have been aware of this, what have you done during your administration to change the tax code to make it more “fair” , as you see it? Lovely. The old “since you didn’t do enough to save the drowning man, you can’t criticize me for holding his head underwater.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/57 "2012-08-17T17:01:49Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Isn’t that impressive! 13% (which is probably a lie because he refuses to prove it). That is an unbelievable tax burden for a guy that is sitting on his ass watching the money flow in. > > Romney is a poster child for why the “job creators” (should it read “outsourcers”) need relief from the burdensome federal income tax. They don’t have enough money and need more to outsource more jobs. Why doesn’t everyone get this concept? > > If you are above the poverty level did you pay more than 13% in federal income taxes? > > I am far above the poverty level and have been paying about 50% in city, state and federal income taxes. I consider it the cost of doing business and thriving in a country that makes it possible to do that. The more taxes I pay the wealthier I get. As my banker told me when I needed cash to pay the tax bill, “That’s a good problem to have.” > > Fuck Romney, his greedy fucked-up, ultra-rich supporters who are addicted to avarice and can never have enough money, and the people that they have duped into thinking that by making the ultra-rich more rich at their expense that they are part of the in-crowd. > > Can this whole scenario get any more bizarre? These greedy assholes have a significant percentage of the population, who are struggling, thinking that they are working in the best interest of Romney & Co. while they are just getting ripping off. > > Oh yeah, it’s not about fiscal responsibility. Gay marriage and freedom of choice for women are the most important issues. If we can get rid of those terrible things then all the economic inequities will go away. Yea, right. :rolleyes::mad: Well, let’s just see. In 2010, Romney had an AGI of $21,646,507. His taxes came out to be $3,009,766. Plug that into a calculator and amazingly enough, his tax percentage comes out to be 13.9%. His 2011 estimated form shows an AGI of $20,901,075 with a tax due of $3,226,623. Plug that into a calculator and amazing enough, his tax percentage comes out to 15.4%. So, technically, one might say you are correct: he didn’t pay 13% because he paid MORE than that. Gee, guess what, bozo? He’s not a lying scumbag and he’s not hiding anything. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant, right? Now, how do I know all this? Simple - Romney’s tax returns are up on his website, where anyone with common sense could go find them instead of spouting bullshit about how Romney “refuses to prove it”. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/58 "2012-08-17T17:03:49Z")
Yes, I know this is _tu quoque_-ish, but can you imagine if Obama didn’t release his tax returns? They wouldn’t accuse him of not paying any taxes, they’d accuse him of writing off donations to the Muslim Brotherhood and to his birth hospital in Kenya. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/59 "2012-08-17T17:04:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t do anything illegal on his tax returns. He has lied publicly about his tax returns before. When running for Governor he said he had lived in state for seven years, but actually his residence was in Utah and his tax returns showed this. After the truth came out he retroactively amended his returns. So he’s a proven liar when it comes to his taxes. For me that’s enough to withhold the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745/60 "2012-08-17T17:07:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ha. You’re desperate for cover on this. I’m giving the Dems the benefit of the doubt in assuming that if Obama put forth a sensible plan that would correct the tax code in favor of the people that _at least_ every Dem would have been on board. Even so, that goes to why a bill might have been passed or not. Before we get to that, we have to evaluate all the work Obama did in pushing congress to fix the tax code so that super rich guys like Romney and super-duper Rich guys like Soros pay their “fair share”. So, what might that be? Oh, I guess it’s your idiocy that makes you look like an idiot. Carry on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-romney-says-he-paid-at-least-13/631745.md?page=4)