# Wow, that D&D article does NOT hold up. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 30, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883 "2010-04-30T17:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/21 "2010-05-03T17:19:10Z")
I don’t think there are any electronic games that qualify as “role playing,” in the sense of improvisational acting or group storytelling that I understood the point to be. Of course, I didn’t think all those playing D&D with paper and dice were genuinely role-playing, either. In retrospect, some of them were just waiting for the video games which would serve their needs more directly. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/22 "2010-05-03T17:27:13Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t think there are any electronic games that qualify as “role playing,” in the sense of improvisational acting or group storytelling that I understood the point to be. As someone who has frequently role played in hardcore RP-enforced MUDS and hosted RP Neverwinter Nights servers I disagree with this. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/23 "2010-05-03T17:58:58Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > As someone who has frequently role played in hardcore RP-enforced MUDS and hosted RP Neverwinter Nights servers I disagree with this. Possibly your groups are _much_ more sophisticated than any of those I’ve seen in action, or read about. I’d have to see it to believe it. To me, the very fact that a term such as “role-play enforced” exists suggests a different mindset than what my groups (in the 1980s) had. We didn’t need to “enforce” role-playing in the course of playing a game–the role-playing was the central point. The game mechanics that we chose to use were just for structure, and rather less important than the structure imparted by things like the cosmology and cultures of our game world. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/24 "2010-05-03T18:09:33Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > The article is dated September 26, 1980. > > In the article, Cecil says “Although Gygax left the company [TSR] in the mid-1980s,”. > Sooo… Cecil had powers of precognition? Of course. He’s a 38th level wizard who’s acquired the sacred vial of precognition potion and the knowledge of imminent fire which gives him the ability to answer any question. (Yes. I have no idea what I’m talking about). ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/25 "2010-05-03T18:09:51Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t think there are any electronic games that qualify as “role playing,” in the sense of improvisational acting or group storytelling that I understood the point to be. Interesting that those are precisely the aspects of RPGs that Cecil failed to mention in his original column. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/26 "2010-05-03T18:16:02Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Possibly your groups are _much_ more sophisticated than any of those I’ve seen in action, or read about. I’d have to see it to believe it. To the point where role play was announced as the central point of our being there and that the mechanical aspect of the game existed only to support what we role played. > [@spark240](#): > > To me, the very fact that a term such as “role-play enforced” exists suggests a different mindset than what my groups (in the 1980s) had. We didn’t need to “enforce” role-playing in the course of playing a game–the role-playing was the central point. The game mechanics that we chose to use were just for structure, and rather less important than the structure imparted by things like the cosmology and cultures of our game world. To me it suggests that there are MUDs where role playing is optional but **not** the point of the game and that the makers of those various MUDs felt it necessary to title their servers so that people coming to play would know what was expected of them. There are MUDs without role play and Neverwinter Nights servers without role play. The designation “RP-enforced” just clarifies what type of server it is. If you were to go to the Neverwinter Nights server listing right now you’d find that role play servers vastly outnumber every other type of server combined. There is plenty of TRUE role play electronically, it’s just not mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/27 "2010-05-03T20:27:40Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t think there are any electronic games that qualify as “role playing,” in the sense of improvisational acting or group storytelling that I understood the point to be. > > Of course, I didn’t think all those playing D&D with paper and dice were genuinely role-playing, either. In retrospect, some of them were just waiting for the video games which would serve their needs more directly. A lot of MUDs were based around true RP, not just number crunching. (The advantage of course is that the computer can do the number crunching for you, and you and the other players can worry about the story.) MMOs have never had any true RP component, they’re too mainstream for that to work anyway. Of course, if you know what a MUD is, you’re a _real_ geek. 🙂 Edit: Oops, someone beat it to me. Suffice it to say there are real RP MUDs. I admined one called The Eternal Struggle that was epic. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/28 "2010-05-03T20:54:24Z")
Hmmm…Cecil was not kind. He was also not accurate when he said: _The rule book is laden with such mystifying pronouncements as the following: “An ancient spell-using red dragon of huge size with 88 hits points has a BXPV of 1300, XP/HP total of 1408, SAXPB of 2800 (armor class plus special defense plus high intelligence plus saving throw bonus due to h.p./die), and an EAXPA of 2550 (major breath weapon plus spell use plus attack damage of 3-30/bite)–totalling 7758 h.p.”_ This is an attempt to calculate the experience point value of a huge, ancient, spell-using red dragon. BXPV is a base value, the other numbers are bonuses for special abilities which are added to the base value. The result of 7,758 should be followed by etiher XP or EP (both of which mean experience points) and not h.p. (which apparently means hit points, but usually is written HP). The 7,758 XP value would then be divided between all of the characters that survived the battle with the dragon, if any. Players accumulate experience points as they adventure, and when they reach certain pre-set amounts of experience points, they gain “levels”, ie increase their abilities/powers/combat abilities. Some DMs may also award some XP for the value of any monetary or magical treasure obtained during the adventure. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/29 "2010-05-03T22:10:37Z")
I have discussed with Ed, several times over the years, the need to update that column. I have offered to be Game Master for Ed and his family, with Cecil if possible, to show them what D&D is really like… but alas. Cecil thinks the column is funny, and humor is what distinguishes The Straight Dope from other inferior competitors. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/30 "2010-05-03T23:04:54Z")
Well, in fairness, what Cecil presented was the mainstream view of D&D at the time he wrote it. At best it was considered nerdy/geeky, and in some circles it was rumored to either include or lead to black magic and devil worship. I’m somewhat disappointed that Cecil didn’t dig beneath the surface to find out more about the game, and how it’s usually played. Also think he should have been impressed with the amount of math, history, mythology, geography, critical thinking and teamwork involved, but to appreciate that, as **Dex** points out, he’d need to participate or at least observe a well run session or three. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/31 "2010-05-03T23:38:49Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Well, in fairness, what Cecil presented was the mainstream view of D&D at the time he wrote it. Well, in fairness, Cecil’s supposed to be crushing ignorance, not propagating it. Apparently he’s keeping it around for the lulz, which is a good enough reason as any. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/32 "2010-05-04T00:25:44Z")
We here at the Fagtorium have just gotten another campaign under way, and **Hamish** (the DM) and I find the column amusing. Of course it’s dated and from an outsider’s perspective, and we can laugh about that (face it, the quoted bit about the huge red dragon really _does_ look completely mystifying to anyone who hasn’t gotten that far in the book – I never played that edition, and to me it looks like Martian). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/33 "2010-05-04T00:30:56Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > I have discussed with Ed, several times over the years, the need to update that column. I have offered to be Game Master for Ed and his family, with Cecil if possible, to show them what D&D is really like… but alas. Cecil thinks the column is funny, and humor is what distinguishes The Straight Dope from other inferior competitors. That would be very interesting to witness. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/34 "2010-05-04T00:49:03Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Cecil thinks the column is funny, and humor is what distinguishes The Straight Dope from other inferior competitors. There are competitors to the Straight Dope column besides Wikipedia and Google? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/35 "2010-05-04T01:39:53Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > That would be very interesting to witness. 🆒 > [@Meeko](#): > > Speaking of Role Playing…:eek: Yeah, I think I wooshed waaaay too many people on my first pass at the same. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/36 "2010-05-04T01:40:18Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > That would be very interesting to witness. 🆒 It involves many trips to the bathroom and a fake mustache. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/37 "2010-05-04T01:56:05Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > Of course, if you know what a MUD is, you’re a _real_ geek. 🙂 I did have to think about it for a moment or two. But I’ve had people eagerly demonstrate them for me; I wasn’t impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/38 "2010-05-04T03:33:10Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > How come we don’t see more columns like this nowadays? > > “Cecil, what’s this new-fangled ‘krumping’ that all the kids are doing?” > > “I don’t get this ‘Grand Theft Auto III’ that those little whippersnappers are talking about. Can you explain it?” > > “Can you explain ‘Radiohead’ to me? I don’t understand have someone can have a radio for a head!” Word! You people are REALLY not “with it”. Cecil isn’t a real person. Ed, Tuba, and Una conspire to do all “his” columns. Haven’t you figured it out?!? It’s a gubmint conspiracy! Oops, I see I didn’t take my paranoia meds this morning… Never Mind…😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/39 "2010-05-04T03:54:05Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It’s a gubmint conspiracy! Oops, I see I didn’t take my paranoia meds this morning… Never Mind…😕😕😕 Paranoia, you say? What’s your clearance, citizen? Do you love the computer? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883/40 "2010-05-04T03:55:16Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Word! You people are REALLY not “with it”. Cecil isn’t a real person. Ed, Tuba, and Una conspire to do all “his” columns. Haven’t you figured it out?!? It’s a gubmint conspiracy! Oops, I see I didn’t take my paranoia meds this morning… Never Mind…😕😕😕 I forgot “Dex”. OOPS! I also forgot a pill… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-that-d-d-article-does-not-hold-up/537883.md?page=3)