# Wow, The Seinfeld characters really were assholes! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 9, 2014, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132 "2014-11-09T10:10:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/81 "2014-11-10T15:30:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I never got it either; it was always either a cringe-fest due to painful awkwardness or some style of sitting there in stunned horror at the characters’ sociopathic actions while watching the episodes. Never really saw what was so funny about it. > > FTR, I couldn’t watch Curb your Enthusiasm or Arrested Development either, for the exact same reasons. There was just a certain meanness about the three shows, combined with painfully awkward scenes intended to somehow be funny that I couldn’t’ take. > > I mean, if any of us were actually in the room with these people doing these awful things, we’d probably speak out, and if we were around during one of thes painfully awkward situations, we’d probably either try and change it up to be less awkward, or it would be something we’d remember with horror for years to come. At no point would they actually be funny, even far in the future. AD was so over the top I could accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/82 "2014-11-10T15:37:29Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It’s about a comedian and his circle of friends. It was groundbreaking only in that the"friends" cliche hadn’t been used in sitcoms up to that point. But even “nothing” is “something.” Well, it was more than that. It was groundbreaking in that they took on subjects that were pretty much taboo in prime time TV: masturbation, oral sex, gay relationships, orgasms, voyeurism, to mention the biggies. Getting that past the censors was an exercise in good writing and editing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/83 "2014-11-10T16:13:23Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I agree with those up thread that said the show was about the crazy day-to-day anti-social stuff we dream about doing but never would. This was usually done in service of some sort of proper manners, so while they were intentionally assholes, maybe one could they they were negligently assholes. They chased the right way of doing things so much, that they ended up doing it in an assholish way. For example, the situation in the “marble rye” episode developed from good intentions gone awry. George needed another marble rye to cover for the fact that his father, and even bigger asshole than George, had brought the bread as a dinner gift and then secretly took it back because he though it wasn’t appreciated. And Jerry ended up stealing the bread from the old woman because he had promised George he would get him one. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/84 "2014-11-10T16:15:52Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > “Seinfeld” was the extension of two personalities: Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David. David is a genuine asshole who acts out in public, and who went on to create a show with the biggest assholes in television, “Curb Your Enthusiasm” on HBO, starring Larry David as Larry David. There is not one redeemable character in that series. While “Seinfeld” was a combination of Seinfeld’s observational comedy and Larry David’s social ineptness, CYE was just the product of David’s asocial personality in all its mean-spirited glory. It makes “Seinfeld” look harmless by comparison. That’s exactly correct! I really enjoyed “Seinfeld”, but never could watch more than a few minutes of “Curb Your Enthusiasm”. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/85 "2014-11-10T17:58:41Z")
At first I thought this was going to be another one of \*\*Leaffan’s \*\*“I hate this old thing that everybody seems to like” threads. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/86 "2014-11-10T18:20:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And Scarface, and The Godfather too! Unpleasant criminals and thugs, the lot of them! > > Don’t get me started on those Simpsons! Whoa. Back up, there. _ **The Simpson** _s are not amoral sociopaths. Most episodes even have a character learn a lesson - it’s very old-school in that respect. Yes, grude, _ **Seinfeld** _’s actual innovation to the sitcom form was to have amoral people doing things and not learning. No sitcom had done that before. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/87 "2014-11-10T18:38:17Z")
I sorta watched Seinfled in its first run and liked it, but it’s become unwatchable now. I never could watch a single full episode of Arrested or Curb, couldn’t like anyhting about them. It’s also the same with “Will and Grace”, the characters are thoroughly unlikable as people. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/88 "2014-11-10T18:42:15Z")
In an episode possibly intended to highlight and make a joke of their frequent assholery, Elaine meets up with an alternative group of three fellows, who are friendly, courteous, generous and studious – and, by episode’s end, want to have nothing to do with her. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/89 "2014-11-10T18:47:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It’s humor through hyperbole. The act out what we might secretly fantasize doing, but in reality wouldn’t want to do, or know we shouldn’t do. This hits the nail on the head. The characters’ poor behavior is essentially the driving force behind the series, and the show couldn’t possibly have worked otherwise. “Funny” is, of course, highly subjective. If you didn’t think _Seinfeld_ was funny, then you didn’t think it was funny. Fair enough. And the characters were certainly unlikeable. But to argue that it wasn’t funny _because_ the characters were unlikeable is absurd. The two are in no way mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/90 "2014-11-10T19:24:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t really remember getting any clear idea of Elaine. Elaine was the “Great Dancer” of the group. She was like the “Ballerina” archetype if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/91 "2014-11-10T20:07:23Z")
> [@grude](#): > > … > > We sympathize with Tony originally,… 😕 :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/92 "2014-11-10T21:07:25Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > In an episode possibly intended to highlight and make a joke of their frequent assholery, Elaine meets up with an alternative group of three fellows, who are friendly, courteous, generous and studious – and, by episode’s end, want to have nothing to do with her. I love that episode. It even managed to work in a nicely-justified Superman reference. Every time I watch it again, me so happy! ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/93 "2014-11-10T21:47:05Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I love that episode. It even managed to work in a nicely-justified Superman reference. Every time I watch it again, me so happy! Ah yes, Elaine and the Bizarro Jerry (and others). Hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/94 "2014-11-10T23:13:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > In all fairness, the NYC that Seinfeld occupies is a world filled with narcissistic, compulsive, selfish, pedantic jerks. > > Personally I don’t see how it’s any better or worse that shows like: > It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia > Scrubs > Arrested Development > Sex And The City > South Park > The Simpsons > Married With Children > Cheers > M.A.S.H. > > All these shows walk a very fine line between characters who are complete psychotic assholes ones who are justifiable jerks that we emphasize with because they are treating actual jerks and assholes the exact way we wish we could treat them in real life. Wait, _M_A_S_H\*? Are you talking about the Robert Altman movie, or the Larry Gelbart TV series? The movie _MASH_ was, yes, full of unsympathetic characters - Hawkeye and Trapper were assholes, and even Radar was a bit of a dickhead - but _M_A_S_H\* the series only ever had three obnoxious regular characters. Frank Burns was a one-note song, and he was quickly written out; but Margaret Houlihan and Charles Emerson Winchester were developed into rounded, sympathetic characters. I don’t see how you can put _M_A_S_H\*, or _Cheers_, either, on a list with _South Park_ or _Married With Children._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/95 "2014-11-11T09:06:12Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > Ah yes, Elaine and the Bizarro Jerry (and others). Hilarious! That was an awesome episode. It recognized that the people involved were jerks. And it’s part of why I’m confused by Elaine’s characterizations, since, in that episode, she was trying to be a good person. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/96 "2014-11-11T09:19:48Z")
If you recall, in the Bizarro Group, Elaine was the jerk. She’s really only the ‘good’ one compared to the regular group. She ends up injuring one of them when she shoves him. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/97 "2014-11-11T11:10:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > If you recall, in the Bizarro Group, Elaine was the jerk. She’s really only the ‘good’ one compared to the regular group. She ends up injuring one of them when she shoves him. Yeah, but people are saying above that she’s the worst of the group, and I remember some episodes where she seemed that way. Plus, I thought the reason they kicked her out was because she came in and just ate food without asking. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/98 "2014-11-11T11:27:58Z")
Exactly, she was the jerk of the bizarro group. Although her pettiness was on a sliding scale. In the early days she was kind of the voice of reason and more the adult in the group, but as the series went on she got worse. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/99 "2014-11-11T18:12:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > A “show about nothing” was how Jerry and George pitched their show(-within-a-show) to the network executives. ([10 Facts About Nothing From Jerry Seinfeld's AMA](http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/10-facts-about-nothing-from-jerry-seinfelds-ama-chat-20140106)) > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by real-life Jerry Seinfeld > The real pitch, when Larry and I went to NBC in 1988, was we want to show how a comedian gets his material… That’s really cool, I hadn’t seen that explanation before, but it reminds me very much (not surprisingly) of a conversation I had with a friend where I was trying to explain why Louis C.K.'s _Louie_ is, IMHO, so funny. It’s a weird show in that it’s sort of filmed like a drama, and there are some conventionally funny moments (ie a clear joke, or humorous dialog). But the funny part of that show is watching the situations with a perspective of what it might be like to try to describe that situation, ie. as Louie/Louis recounting it later in his act. There’s a story in one of his stage shows (I saw it live, and then a version of it apparently was his SNL monologue) where he’s in an airport and an old lady falls down. And he describes how at that moment, there’s a lot of people around and an awkward few seconds before anybody does anything – they’re basically playing Chicken waiting to see if anyone else will help first. And he “loses,” so now he _has to_ pick this old lady up. Then she needs directions and he _has to_ walk her through the airport because he’s already been nice and can’t just suddenly brush her off. Next thing you know he’s carrying a bunch of stuff and she’s just babbling about this and that and telling him all this stuff about who knows what and the whole scenario just keeps going… So in his standup, of course, he peppers the whole thing with hilarious commentary on why he’s doing what he’s doing, jokes about old ladies in general, etc., but that “slice of life” would be translated to the show as something more like “sees old lady fall down, eyes shift around to see if anyone will help, no, so he picks her up, then she just continues imposing on him until he and the viewer are really uncomfortable with the awkward situation.” And it’s a little more up to us to fill in the humor of the situation, or see how it could/would be turned into a joke. Sorry for the off-topic dissertation, there. Obviously Jerry and Louis know each other and appreciate each other, and I feel that _Louie_ seems to be about how a (“observational,” I suppose) comedian sees life around him and turns it into material – I never thought about _Seinfeld_ being about that, I guess because the situations are usually more ridiculous, there’s a laugh track, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132/100 "2014-11-11T18:17:56Z")
Early in the series they made it pretty clear though with bits of his standup put into the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-the-seinfeld-characters-really-were-assholes/704132.md?page=6)