# Wow, you're REAL celebrities now boys. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894 "2006-10-25T20:45:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/41 "2006-10-29T05:26:04Z")
The attack was vile enough, but you can _almost_ blame it on youthful stupidity, you can _almost_ blame it on being a spur of the moment thing, and you can _almost_ blame it on peer pressure for some of the weaker boys. Almost. Rather than ‘blame’, then maybe ‘allow mitigating circumstances to be taken into account’ would be better wording. But then they made the DVD. That means they went to their individual homes, and had a chance to cool down, count to ten, reflect, and be deeply ashamed. But they still made that bloody DVD. They made it later, and they made it coldly and in the safety of a suburban house. That’s pure premeditation. Lock 'em up for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/42 "2006-10-29T05:54:46Z")
No argument with anything you say **Loaded** , and I agree it was totally premeditated. But what I fail to understand is HOW this has happened in such a relatively large group of kids. Sure, lock 'em up, but what does that solve in the long run? If **I Were the Power that Be** , I’d be creating a seperate psycho-social forensic institution to study these kids like lab-rats. What is going on in the minds of people nowadays that they can not only accept, but promote such behaviours? Why has the line between ok and NOT ok blurred so badly? Where is society heading (or perhaps already arrived at) when harming our fellow human being is deemed entertainment? THAT is what we need to know. Yup. Lab-rats. And feed 'em on a diet of Kraft Cheddar and Ratsak. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/43 "2006-10-29T06:09:41Z")
I read an _Atlantic_ article awhile back where the author noted that in cases where a large group engaged in unbelievably vicious behavior, often you had a small percentage of charismatic sociopaths who were able to incite people to do things they normally wouldn’t do on their own. It also helps if the victim can be partrayed as less than fully human, somehow. A sort of herd effect sets in. The article was talking about the genocide in Rwanda, but I think the ideas are relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/44 "2006-10-29T07:21:11Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] I read an _Atlantic_ article awhile back where the author noted that in cases where a large group engaged in unbelievably vicious behavior, often you had a small percentage of charismatic sociopaths who were able to incite people to do things they normally wouldn’t do on their own. It also helps if the victim can be partrayed as less than fully human, somehow. A sort of herd effect sets in. The article was talking about the genocide in Rwanda, but I think the ideas are relevant here. [/QUOTE] That’s interesting **Larry** , and I sure would appreciate a cite if you could dig one up. It sort of backs my gut feeling that we are not just dealing with a bunch of young, wayward or perhaps evil dickheads, but some sort of societal phenomenon that rears its head occasionally, and goes terribly wrong in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/45 "2006-10-29T13:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] I read an _Atlantic_ article awhile back where the author noted that in cases where a large group engaged in unbelievably vicious behavior, often you had a small percentage of charismatic sociopaths who were able to incite people to do things they normally wouldn’t do on their own. It also helps if the victim can be partrayed as less than fully human, somehow. A sort of herd effect sets in. The article was talking about the genocide in Rwanda, but I think the ideas are relevant here. [/QUOTE] Not to mention Armenia, Nazi Germany, Bosnia… How is it that folks can sternly shake their heads when talking about genocide and those who used their own hands to commit it- and be glad of enormous efforts made to bring all [perpetrators who are found to justice](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/28/deportation/), and then even debate what should be done with this group of boys? Do we not posess free will? Are we not all sentient beings? You do not prosecute the one who did the raping and just wag a disappointed tongue at the rest of the gang. I agree that the charismatic sociopaths scenario may well be real, but the others who go along are in all manner of speaking just as responsible. For, they did not do the right thing. It is a story as old as humankind and power and violence itself. They went along silently, rather than stand and speak up. They needed to fit in more than they needed to say and do the right thing afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/46 "2006-10-29T14:21:23Z")
[QUOTE=kambuckta] Where is society heading (or perhaps already arrived at) when harming our fellow human being is deemed entertainment? [/QUOTE] Toward the mindset of Ancient Rome? There are elements of popular culture (the Jackasses show and movies, extreme boxing, etc.) that already edge into gladiator territory. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/47 "2006-10-29T15:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] There are elements of popular culture (the Jackasses show and movies, extreme boxing, etc.) that already edge into gladiator territory. [/QUOTE] -cough-[NCAA](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15277140/)[College](http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=645401321ea5ede496f6ab079001d3fa.1711ec771c58cdfc5807ac2a53b80003&cache=1)[Football](http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/10/19/police_college_investigate_dartmouth_football_brawl/), anyone ?-cough- :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SkiDemon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@SkiDemon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkiDemon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/48 "2006-10-30T00:36:11Z")
> [@](#): > > You consider a forced blowjob to be something other than rape? No, I don’t. I consider it 100% rape. I was just clarifying the details of the sexual assault for Pullet. Pullet had thought that rape just meant full blown intercourse. (see his post that I c&p below) I however think that ANY forced sexual activity IS rape. > [@](#): > > There are kinds of rape that don’t involve intercourse somehow? Do you mean it wasn’t vaginal intercourse, or that it was with and object? > [@](#): > > I think they need to be in PRISON, not in a mental ward. They aren’t crazy, they are disgusting criminals. Well how about BOTH? There are mental wards that are in prisons. I really think that Larry Borgia hit the nail on the head, and that we’re dealing with some VERY sick sociopathic thugs. Not just boys playing a stupid prank or criminals. If they get sent to prison they will just come out of prison even more hardened and sociopathic then they already are! There HAS to be a reason for their behavoir… ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/49 "2006-10-30T11:35:13Z")
I read an interesting report today about the case. It turns out that not all the kids came from Werribee Secondary College (a fairly poor government school), but that a number of them attended private schools in the area. Werribee College has of course attracted all the media attention and the principal and staff have bravely and publicly taken on the fallout, while the private schools have said absolutely nought, and are hoping like hell that nobody notices where _those_ boys were ‘educated’. Stand up and be counted you gutless wonders. Letting Werribee S.C. cop all the flak is just very poor form. Have the courage to admit that your school is home to at least some of the alleged offenders, because hiding that fact is sending the message to the kids and the community that keeping quiet is the best way to deal with the problem. Is that _really_ the message you wish to convey? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/50 "2006-10-30T16:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] “someone ratted them out”? 😕 Are you condemning as a “rat” the brave civic minded citizen who informed the Poilce of this heinous crime? [/QUOTE] No. I was going to write ‘drop a dime’, however, with the story taking place Down Under, I have no idea of the cost of a call from a public phone or if they even have dimes. However, I’m sure that the people who bought the DVDs were probably acquaintances of the suspects, and that they had some idea of what was on the disk before they handed over the cash. So, I felt, that the people buying the DVDs could be called rats. Upon reflection, this is completely unfair to rats. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/51 "2006-10-30T17:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Not to mention Armenia, Nazi Germany, Bosnia… How is it that folks can sternly shake their heads when talking about genocide and those who used their own hands to commit it- and be glad of enormous efforts made to bring all [perpetrators who are found to justice](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/28/deportation/), and then even debate what should be done with this group of boys? Do we not posess free will? Are we not all sentient beings? You do not prosecute the one who did the raping and just wag a disappointed tongue at the rest of the gang. I agree that the charismatic sociopaths scenario may well be real, but the others who go along are in all manner of speaking just as responsible. For, they did not do the right thing. It is a story as old as humankind and power and violence itself. They went along silently, rather than stand and speak up. They needed to fit in more than they needed to say and do the right thing afterwards. [/QUOTE] Well yeah, of course people are responsible for their actions. Of course everyone involved in this atrocity should be severly punished. I was just posting a theory that tried to explain the psychology of such a large group being involved, something that is understandably shocking a lot of dopers. It certainly shocks me. I’ll see if I can find a cite. It was in an Atlantic article a few years ago. Unfortunately, even if I find the article it will be on a fee based website, unless you are an Atlantic subscriber. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/52 "2006-10-30T18:29:02Z")
[Here’s the article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200204/rauch). As I said it’s a paysite, unless you are an Atlantic subscriber. (Which you should consider, it’s a great mag.) It’s mostly about using computer simulations to model social behavior, so you may find the quote below odd. It’s not as on point as I remembered, but I think it’s oddly relevant. (Note to mods: it’s one para out of a very long article, so it should be cool.) > [@](#): > > I don’t think I’m alone in finding this artificial genocide eerie. The outcome, of course, is chilling; but what is at least as spooky is that such complicated—to say nothing of familiar—social patterns can be produced by mindless packets of data following a few almost ridiculously simple rules. If I showed you these illustrations and told you they represented genocide, you might well assume you were seeing a schematic diagram of an actual event. Moreover, the model is designed without any element of imitation or communication, so mass hysteria or organized effort is literally impossible. No agent is knowingly copying his peers or following the crowd; none is consciously organizing a self-protective enclave. All the agents are separately and individually reacting “rationally”—according to rules, in any case—to local conditions that the agents themselves are rapidly altering. As hotheads begin to go active, the odds that any one misbehaving agent will be arrested decline, emboldening more-timid agents nearby to act up, reducing the odds of arrest still further, emboldening more agents, and so on. As in real life, the violence, once begun, can spread rapidly as cops are overwhelmed in one neighborhood after another. Although the agents are atomized and disorganized, the violence is communal and coherent. It has form and direction and even a sort of malevolent logic. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/53 "2006-10-30T21:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] I was going to write ‘drop a dime’, however, with the story taking place Down Under, I have no idea of the cost of a call from a public phone or if they even have dimes. [/QUOTE] While Australia doesn’t have dimes (we just call it a 10 cent coin), the prevalence of American culture (TV shows, movies, etc.) means that many (most?) Aussies would understand your meaning if you said “drop a dime.” The term most frequently used in Australia for informing on someone is “dobbing them in.” In England you might hear “grassing them up.” ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/54 "2006-10-31T05:07:27Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] I didn’t think so, but things in Oz have a way of working themselves out. Hell, a Stingray killed the croc hunter, and the next week, they were finding dead rays all over the place. I gotta believe justice will be served to these malcontents [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, just like your example with the stingrays, the justice that will be meted out will be by morons, targetting completely the wrong people. A day or two ago I heard that students and staff (!?!) at Werribee Secondary College were getting abused, etc, even though none of the people in the video are current students there. As Kambuckta said, the ‘high class’ schools where some of the perpetrators came from have so far escaped any trouble from this, but hopefully that changes soon. ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894/55 "2006-10-31T20:48:23Z")
It was definately premeditated. From [this article:](http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/outcry-over-teenage-girls-assault-recorded-on-dvd/2006/10/24/1161455722271.html) > [@](#): > > Allan said his daughter had arranged to meet two of the boys through an MSN internet chat service at a Werribee shopping centre. Soon after arriving she was surrounded and forced by a gang, some of whom she knew, to walk to a nearby riverbank where she was attacked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-youre-real-celebrities-now-boys/377894.md?page=2)