# Writers Guild of America goes on strike (5/2/23) tentative deal (9/25/23) Now accepted (10/9/23) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ai\ **Created:** [May 2, 2023, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448 "2023-05-02T04:36:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/241 "2023-09-14T23:32:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Here’s the ChatGPT summation of all the information it’s pulled from its incredibly vast repository of material about this subject, which fully supports the information in my original cite: …I mean, what else can I add here but a LOL? I’ve cited an actual showrunner. I cited one of the most experienced television scriptwriters in the industry. This is all _common knowledge_ and easily verifiable. You are citing a language learning model. Did you intend this post as a joke? Is that what you were going for here? Because language learning models can’t write a script. They will never replace a human scriptwriter. And you should _never_ use them as a cite. Because they often get things wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/242 "2023-09-14T23:45:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because they often get things wrong. Sure, and I was just being lazy. But they get things right much more often than wrong, and in this case it’s useful as an aggregator of much more massive information than any human could possible process. That’s what I was using it for. The problem with citing “an actual showrunner” is that, by definition, it’s anecdotal, while what I provided is statistical. I would consider a balanced statistical conclusion culled from a vast repository of globally-sourced information at least potentially more representative of reality than “something a friend told me”. All of which is rather a hijack from the main points. Both in the case of the _Evil_ production shutdown, and now all the caterwauling about the restart of the Bill Maher show, I fail to see how the WGA has or had any legitimate interest in those specific cases, other than “union good, studios bad, shut everything down”. The rule of law and a balanced consideration of everyone’s rights should still be preeminent here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/243 "2023-09-14T23:51:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I would consider a balanced statistical conclusion culled from a vast repository of globally-sourced information at least potentially more representative of reality than “something a friend told me”. Only because you clearly have no idea what a chat bot is or how it works. It’s not a search engine. It’s not a statistical model. It’s a speech simulator. There are absolutely no checks in place to ensure that ChatGPT gives accurate information, and it’s 100% not part of its purpose or design to do so. Chat GPT isn’t a “statistical” cite, it’s literally garbage that means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/244 "2023-09-14T23:55:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > while what I provided is statistical. …no it wasn’t “statistical.” It was just _wrong_. And it was probably wrong because of whatever prompt it was that you used. Because it pretty loosely describes what happens on a film set. But it doesn’t describe what happens in television. Again: in film, the _director_ is in charge. In television, the _writer_ runs the show. In film, the director takes over and makes the script their own. In television, the director manages their own episode, from pre-production, into production, then into post. But the showrunner, who up until recently almost always came from the writers room, runs everything else. Because a television show often has multiple directors, all working at different stages of production, and only the writers will have a handle on the big picture. > [@wolfpup](#): > > All of which is rather a hijack from the main points No, this isn’t a hijack. I get that you’ve got an agenda, and that you’ve got a point to make. But the WGA do have a legitimate interest in these specific cases. The “rule of law” isn’t relevant here. The unions aren’t chucking bricks through peoples windows. They are holding signs on the sidewalk singing songs. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/245 "2023-09-15T00:04:26Z")
…I just had a chat to GPT! Here is what they had to say to me on the matter. > [@](#): > > 1. **Hierarchy and Control:** > > - **Film:** In the world of film, the director often has significant creative control over the project. While the screenwriter’s vision is important, they may have limited influence once the director takes charge. > - **Television:** In television, the showrunner or head writer often has more influence and creative control over the series as a whole. This can provide television writers with a more significant say in how the story unfolds on screen. > > 1. **Rewrites and Changes:** > > - **Film:** Once filming begins on a movie, there is less room for script changes, and revisions may be made by other writers or during production. The screenwriter’s involvement in these changes can vary. > - **Television:** TV scripts are frequently subject to revisions and changes, even during the shooting of an episode. Writers are often on set to make real-time adjustments, and collaborative rewrites are common to accommodate actor feedback and other production considerations. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/246 "2023-09-15T00:14:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Only because you clearly have no idea what a chat bot is or how it works. Sorry, dude, having been involved in AI-adjacent endeavours for a long time, I do understand how it works, and your description is misleading. Yes, it’s a generative next-word prediction language model, but its predictions are based on a vast corpus of human intelligence. Yes, there are no confidence filters in the current implementations, but the aggregations of knowledge are usually right, even if not reliable enough to be used in critical situations. But the consistency of this particular response with the site I previously linked providing advice to screenwriters should speak to the credibility of this response. Or this Wikipedia entry on screenwriting, expressing what seems to be a widespread view consistent with the previous ones: > Screenwriters are rarely involved in the production of a film. > [Screenwriter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenwriter#Production_involvement) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > All of which is rather a hijack from the main points > > No, this isn’t a hijack. I get that you’ve got an agenda, and that you’ve got a point to make. But the WGA do have a legitimate interest in these specific cases. The “rule of law” isn’t relevant here. The unions aren’t chucking bricks through peoples windows. They are holding signs on the sidewalk singing songs. They’re also preventing many other people from being able to earn a livelihood, even when productions have nothing to do with their union members or their work. I would still like someone to answer **[the question I posed up in this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23/983448/237)** about who the “scab” is in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/247 "2023-09-15T00:22:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Or this Wikipedia entry on screenwriting, expressing what seems to be a widespread sentiment: …on film! **FILM!!!** It says it right there in the preview! > [@wolfpup](#): > > They’re also preventing many other people from being able to earn a livelihood, even when productions have nothing to do with their union members or their work. Yes! They are on strike! They are on the picket lines! That’s how it works! And the studios are also preventing other people from going back to work, firstly by waiting for over 100 days before they presented a counteroffer. The studios aren’t talking. The studios aren’t negotiating. They want the writers and the actors to lose their homes. If you want to blame anyone for “preventing other people from going to work” then you should be putting the blame on them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/248 "2023-09-15T00:37:45Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Sorry, dude, having been involved in AI-adjacent endeavours for a long time, I do understand how it works… You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/249 "2023-09-15T00:49:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Sorry, dude, having been involved in AI-adjacent endeavours for a long time, I do understand how it works… > > You don’t. **Question:** Does a random internet poster claiming that I don’t understand how you work have any credibility when I’ve tried to explain it as follows “it’s a generative next-word prediction language model, but its predictions are based on a vast corpus of human intelligence. Yes, there are no confidence filters in the current implementations, but the aggregations of knowledge are usually right, even if not reliable enough to be used in critical situations.” **ChatGPT:** The credibility of a random internet poster’s claim that you don’t understand how a language model like GPT-3 works should be evaluated based on the evidence and reasoning they provide, as well as your own understanding of the topic. Your explanation of GPT-3 in your question is quite accurate. GPT-3 is indeed a generative next-word prediction language model that operates based on a vast corpus of human-written text. It doesn’t have explicit confidence filters, but its knowledge is generally accurate, even though it might not always be reliable in critical situations. If the random internet poster is making claims without providing any supporting evidence or valid arguments, their credibility may be lower. However, if they can provide specific points or evidence that you have misunderstood some aspect of GPT-3 or its functioning, it’s worth considering their perspective and, if necessary, revisiting your own understanding of the topic. 😉 And sorry to all for the hijack! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/250 "2023-09-15T00:52:30Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > **Question:** Does a random internet poster claiming that I don’t understand how you work have any credibility when I’ve tried to explain it as follows “it’s a generative next-word prediction language model, but its predictions are based on a vast corpus of human intelligence. Yes, there are no confidence filters in the current implementations, but the aggregations of knowledge are usually right, even if not reliable enough to be used in critical situations.” …is this a concession that you are wrong about writers being on set in television? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/251 "2023-09-15T01:05:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …is this a concession that you are wrong about writers being on set in television? Nah, it just means I’d rather go back to posting dog pictures for a while. 🙂 I’m not nearly as emotionally invested in this as you appear to be, but I believe there’s a valid discussion to be had about the difference between a serial drama miniseries like _Evil_ and the kind of writers’ room interactions that were ongoing during the evolution of a sitcom like _Seinfeld_. I don’t have enough insight into the production of _Evil_ to comment on that, but it does strike me as being a very, very different creative environment. Meanwhile, I’d still like someone to answer my question posed **[over here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23/983448/237)** about who the “scab” is in the Bill Maher return. I’ll also opine my foreboding that the Sep 29 show may be scuttled by WGA picket lines regardless of the answer to that question. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/252 "2023-09-15T01:29:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m not nearly as emotionally invested in this as you appear to be, …I freely admit to being emotionally invested in this. Which is why I’ve made a particular point of backing everything I’ve said up in the thread from the start. But I don’t think you get to claim “you are not as emotionally invested in this as me.” Especially after your last series of posts. > [@wolfpup](#): > > but I believe there’s a valid discussion to be had about the difference between a serial drama miniseries like _Evil_ and the kind of writers’ room interactions that were ongoing during the evolution of a sitcom like _Seinfeld_. Nothing is stopping us having this discussion. But this isn’t what the discussion has been about for the last few posts. The base process is the same. The writers room is formed, and they break each season. Writers are then typically allocated their episodes, but the process remains collaborative. When the episode is filmed, they would try and have a writer on set as much as they can. Since the pandemic, the studios have been trying to change the system. I talk about Marvel at length earlier in the thread. They moved the power away from the writers and towards the producers, which has resulted in shows that are good, but not great. That mostly work…but fall apart at the end. Here’s another example of what the studios are doing. Yes, its anecdotal. Because the point is to explain what is happening, and sharing stories is a great way to do it. > [@Liz Hsiao Lan Alper](#): > > In 2021, I got a meeting request from a TAG animated show for Netflix, with a hot star attached. Netflix wanted “new voices” for a “new process.” > > The process? Break the entire season over a WEEKEND. Then give each writer a freelance. > > … > > I called my TAG friends, because I was positive I had misunderstood the process. A whole season in a WEEKEND? Keep me on the hook (but not in a room) for months because of a single freelance?! > > Yes, they said. That’s what had been happening. The rooms were disappearing. > To make it crystal clear; this is what the strikes are all about. This is an industry-wide problem that is being caused by people who don’t understand the creative process and just want to make things look good for the shareholders. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/253 "2023-09-15T03:37:01Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > “union good, studios bad, shut everything down” Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/254 "2023-09-15T03:37:15Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > A fine bit of hyperbole there. Here’s the Merriam-Webster set of possible definitions of “scab” in a labour context: > > (1) a worker who refuses to join a labor union > (2) a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended > (3) a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike > (4) one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms If we’re going to restrict ourselves to dictionary definitions, then Bill Maher fits definition 2. He is himself a member of the WGA, and is returning to work before the strike has ended. But, of course, reality has more nuance. He’s a member of the WGA, but he’s saying there will be no writing on this show. But he is going against WGA guidelines, and the WGA thinks it will be highly unlikely he can run a show without violating the explicit rules that he has to abide by. It’s not like he’s working with the WGA to avoid violating them. But mostly it’s just going back to what “scabbing” really means. It’s about actions that help stanch the metaphorical bleeding caused by a labor/union action. And bringing back his show does that. It gives HBO a show that they would otherwise not have, and HBO is part of the AMPTP, who the WGA are striking against. The dictionary just listed the most common methods. Not the only ones. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/255 "2023-09-15T04:17:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I believe there’s a valid discussion to be had about the difference between a serial drama miniseries like _Evil_ and the kind of writers’ room interactions that were ongoing during the evolution of a sitcom like _Seinfeld_. Just to note that John Rogers, the writer/showrunner whom @Banquet_Bear quoted extensively earlier, works primarily on hour-long _dramas_ (though, arguably, his niche seems to be drama-comedies), like _Leverage_ (as noted earlier), plus _The Librarians_ and _The Player_. So, IMO, Rogers’ observations about what things are like on the shows on which he’s worked, and the ongoing involvement of writers in the production, are likely to be at least reasonably relevant to another TV drama (like _Evil_), and more relevant than, say, the observations of someone who works on a sitcom. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/256 "2023-09-15T04:46:05Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Just to note that John Rogers, the writer/showrunner whom @Banquet_Bear quoted extensively earlier, works primarily on hour-long _dramas_ (though, arguably, his niche seems to be drama-comedies), like _Leverage_ (as noted earlier), plus _The Librarians_ and _The Player_. …and he’s also on the board of the WGA, has spent much of his career helping television writers all over the show, and most importantly as all is one of the credited writers on these classics of modern cinema, “The Core” and “[Catwoman](https://twitter.com/jonrog1/status/967206562287661057).” He knows his shit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/257 "2023-09-15T12:27:06Z")
Once again, @Banquet_Bear: I’m learning a lot from your posts and research. Thank you! Do you have a direct involvement with the US television scene, and if so, are you comfortable telling us what it is? ChatGPT–wow. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/258 "2023-09-16T14:15:54Z")
> **[Bill Maher Returns To Show Over Fears Aging Fan Base Will Die Off Before...](https://www.theonion.com/bill-maher-returns-to-show-over-fears-aging-fan-base-wi-1850843363)** > > LOS ANGELES—In a controversial move earning him the ire of the Writers Guild of America, television host Bill Maher confirmed this week that he would cross picket lines to put his show Real Time back on the air, citing concerns his aging fan base... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/259 "2023-09-16T14:18:45Z")
Hah! I was gonna post exactly that link earlier this morning, but midway between copying the link and posting it I saw a squirrel or something and forgot. Thanks for posting it! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/260 "2023-09-16T16:02:54Z")
There was a strange Instagram video posted by Drew Barrymore regarding her show coming back during the strike. It was a tearful video in which she apologized to the WGA but didn’t say anything more of any substance, and then later deleted the video. News reports say she still plans to bring back the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448.md?page=14)