# Writers Strike - AI demands unlikely to succeed **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** ai\ **Created:** [May 19, 2023, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263 "2023-05-19T10:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/41 "2023-05-19T14:21:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > not to mention cop shows that will end up relying on tired old tropes. We believe the fight started when the dealer broke his calculator and couldn’t figure out how many grams were in a kilo. It was a slow speed chase as his GPS was broken and he had to keep stopping to ask directions. Those are the fax chief. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/42 "2023-05-19T14:31:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The latter doesn’t seem inherently wrong to me. …the thing is: draft scripts don’t come out of nowhere. Someone has to come up the original idea. Come up with a pitch. A logline. Perhaps a series bible. And typically those ideas will come from writers. The writers will make a pitch. A writers room gets formed. They will take the logline and break the story, a process that could take weeks or months. Only _then_ do they start writing scripts. So if "writers being “asked to rewrite draft scripts created by AI”, then who does the rest of the work? Who comes up with the idea in the first place? Who breaks the story? Who writes the elaborate framing story? Who decides on the relationships? Who lives and who dies? It likely the job of “pitching” and creating a television show would be taken at the executive level. They will use an algorithm to design a show to “hit the right taste clusters.” To make a TV series that gets the “right verticals.” > **[Sally's Show Gets Canceled | Barry | HBO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktAbh39aoU8%2F)** > > Sally, Lindsay and Natalie attempt to defend Sally's television show after find out that it is being canceled despite its high ratings on Rotten TomatoesABOU... I fed into ChatGPT the following prompt: Write episode outlines for a 16 episode season for a show with the logline “A high school chemistry teacher diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer turns to manufacturing and selling methamphetamine in order to secure his family’s future.” This is what ChatGPT gave me: > [@ChatGPT](#): > > Season 1: “Breaking Bad” > > Episode 1: “Pilot” > Walter White, a high school chemistry teacher, receives a devastating diagnosis of inoperable lung cancer. Determined to provide for his family after his death, he teams up with a former student, Jesse Pinkman, and begins manufacturing and selling methamphetamine. > > Episode 2: “The Cook” > Walter and Jesse struggle with their first attempts at cooking meth, encountering various obstacles and setbacks. Meanwhile, Walter’s wife, Skyler, grows suspicious of his secretive behavior. > > Episode 3: “No Turning Back” > Walter and Jesse’s partnership becomes strained as they face their first major setback in the meth business. Skyler confronts Walter about his strange actions, leading to a tense confrontation. > > Episode 4: “Chemical Reactions” > Walter’s chemistry expertise comes into play as he develops a new and highly potent method for cooking meth. Their product gains attention in the drug world, attracting the interest of a dangerous drug cartel. > > Episode 5: “Gray Matter” > Walter reconnects with his former colleagues at Gray Matter Technologies, leading to tensions and unresolved issues from his past. Meanwhile, Jesse faces personal turmoil and struggles with the consequences of his criminal activities. > > Episode 6: “A Matter of Trust” > Walter and Jesse’s business expands, and they enlist the help of a small group of trusted associates. However, maintaining trust becomes increasingly challenging as paranoia and suspicion set in. > > Episode 7: “Cornered” > Walter finds himself in a dangerous predicament when he crosses paths with a local drug dealer known for his violence. Skyler begins to unravel Walter’s secret life and takes matters into her own hands. > > Episode 8: “Cancerous Choices” > Walter’s cancer treatment takes a toll on his health, forcing him to make difficult choices about his future and the legacy he wants to leave behind. Jesse struggles with guilt and the consequences of his actions. > > Episode 9: “Crystal Clear” > Walter and Jesse’s operation faces a major threat when a rival drug dealer encroaches on their territory. They must find a way to protect their business and maintain their dominance in the meth market. > > Episode 10: “Family Matters” > Skyler discovers the truth about Walter’s involvement in the drug trade and confronts him, leading to a fracture in their relationship. Walter’s brother-in-law, Hank, a DEA agent, gets closer to uncovering the truth. > > Episode 11: “Under Pressure” > Walter and Jesse face increasing pressure from law enforcement and rival drug dealers. They must navigate dangerous situations and make risky decisions to protect their operation and stay one step ahead. > > Episode 12: “Breaking Point” > Walter’s desperate actions to protect his business and his family have dire consequences. Jesse finds himself caught between loyalty and self-preservation, and the consequences of his choices become unbearable. > > Episode 13: “The Heisenberg Principle” > Walter’s alter ego, Heisenberg, becomes more widely known as his meth empire expands. The DEA intensifies its investigation, putting Hank on a collision course with Walter’s criminal activities. > > Episode 14: “Out of Control” > As tensions escalate, Walter’s once meticulously planned operation spirals out of control. The personal and professional consequences of his actions become impossible to ignore. > > Episode 15: “End Game” > Walter is forced to confront the full extent of the damage caused by his choices as his empire crumbles around him. Jesse, consumed by guilt and anger, seeks revenge and closure. > > Episode 16: “Final Chemistry” > In the explosive season finale, Walter’s journey reaches its climax as he faces the consequences of his actions head-on. The choices he makes in his final moments will determine the fate of his family and his own legacy That just shows you how _bad_ AI is right now. It didn’t come up with anything original. It recognized the logline and decided to call the show “Breaking Bad.” It randomly named the protagonist “Walter White” who has a wife randomly named “Skyler”. He has a former student, randomly named “Jesse Pinkman” and a brother in law randomly named “Hank”, who just randomly happens to be a DEA agent. I tell ChatGPT off. “You stole the plot from breaking bad. This isn’t breaking bad. Rewrite this. But it must be original.” > [@ChatGPT](#): > > Season 1: “Shattered Bonds” > > Episode 1: “Fragile Beginnings” > David Morgan, a talented high school chemistry teacher, receives a devastating diagnosis of a rare neurological disease. Fearing for his family’s financial future, he ventures into the underground world of designer drugs to secure their stability. > > Episode 2: “The Forbidden Formula” > David seeks out an enigmatic chemist named Alex, known for his expertise in creating cutting-edge narcotics. Together, they develop a revolutionary formula for a new synthetic drug, but their alliance is tested when a ruthless drug lord becomes aware of their operation. > > Episode 3: “Hidden Hazards” > As David and Alex embark on the production of their illicit drug, they encounter unexpected obstacles, including rival gangs vying for control of the market. David’s wife, Emily, grows suspicious of his odd behavior and begins her own investigation. > > Episode 4: “Breaking Point” > David’s deteriorating health and mounting pressure from his double life take a toll on his mental and physical well-being. Emily confronts him about his secretive activities, forcing David to make a difficult decision that will impact their relationship. > > Episode 5: “Double Crossed” > David and Alex’s drug operation gains traction, attracting the attention of a notorious undercover agent seeking to dismantle the drug trade. Unbeknownst to David, Emily forms an unlikely alliance with the agent, determined to protect her family. > > Episode 6: “A Deadly Gamble” > David and Alex’s operation faces a crisis when a rival chemist threatens their supply chain. To save their business, they must delve deeper into the criminal underworld and form alliances with dangerous individuals. > > Episode 7: “Fractured Loyalties” > Emily’s allegiance is tested as her relationship with the undercover agent grows more complicated. Meanwhile, David discovers a shocking betrayal within his inner circle, leading to a violent confrontation that shakes the foundation of their operation. > > Episode 8: “Clandestine Alliances” > David and Emily’s worlds collide when Emily’s secret involvement with the undercover agent is exposed. They must confront the consequences of their actions while trying to keep their family intact amidst escalating danger. > > Episode 9: “Chemical Warfare” > David’s declining health threatens to derail their operation as he struggles to balance his double life. To maintain control, he must devise innovative methods to outwit both law enforcement and rival drug organizations. > > Episode 10: “Unraveled Threads” > David’s daughter, Lily, inadvertently discovers her father’s secret life, forcing him to confront the devastating impact his choices have had on his family. Meanwhile, the net tightens around David as the undercover agent closes in. > > Episode 11: “Desperate Measures” > With his back against the wall, David makes a desperate alliance with a notorious gang leader to protect his family and secure his operation. The risks escalate, pushing him to the brink of moral collapse. > > Episode 12: “Point of No Return” > David’s empire teeters on the brink of collapse as law enforcement closes in on his operation. Betrayals and sacrifices are made, forever changing the dynamics between David, Emily, and those around them. > > Episode 13: “Tainted Legacy” > As David faces the consequences of his choices, he is forced to reckon with the damage he has caused and the legacy he will leave behind. Emily fights to protect her family’s future, even if it means making unimaginable sacrifices. > > Episode 14: “Rising Storm” > In the face of mounting pressure, David devises a daring plan to eliminate his enemies and secure his family’s safety. The lines between right and wrong blur as he embraces the darkness within him. > > Episode 15: “Final Confrontation” > As David’s empire crumbles, he faces a final showdown with the undercover agent who has relentlessly Is it original? Probably not. Is it derivative? Sure. Would it be good enough for an executive to greenlight a set of draft scripts? Probably. Lets write the first page. > [@ChatGPT](#): > > **Episode 1: “Fragile Beginnings”** > > INT. HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY CLASSROOM - DAY > > DAVID MORGAN (40s, worn down but still determined) stands at the front of the classroom, chalk in hand, passionately explaining the intricacies of a chemical reaction to his students. The students listen attentively, captivated by his teaching. > > DAVID And so, when we introduce the catalyst, it speeds up the reaction, allowing us to achieve the desired outcome more efficiently. Chemistry is all about balance and precision. > > A few students scribble notes, while others gaze at David with admiration and respect. > > INT. HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY LAB - CONTINUOUS > > David enters the lab, the energy from the classroom still lingering within him. He meticulously sets up the equipment for the day’s experiment. > > INT. HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY LAB - LATER > > David guides a group of students as they conduct an experiment, his passion for the subject evident in every word and gesture. He wears a lab coat, a symbol of his authority and expertise. > > Suddenly, David’s enthusiasm is interrupted by a violent COUGHING FIT. He doubles over, struggling to catch his breath. > > DAVID (apologetically) Sorry, everyone. Let’s take a short break. > > The students exchange worried glances as David exits the lab, clutching his chest. > > INT. DOCTOR’S OFFICE - DAY > > David sits in an uncomfortably sterile doctor’s office, anxiously awaiting the results of his medical tests. The air feels heavy with anticipation. > > DR. JAMESON (50s, compassionate but direct) enters the room, holding a folder with the test results. > > DR. JAMESON David, I’m afraid the results are in. It’s not good news. You have a rare form of neurological disease. It’s progressive and, at this stage, incurable. > > David’s face contorts with a mixture of shock and devastation. His world crumbles before him. > > DAVID (stammering) H-How long…how long do I have? > > DR. JAMESON It’s difficult to determine with certainty, but based on your symptoms and the progression we’ve observed, I estimate about a year, maybe less. > > David’s gaze drops to the floor as he struggles to absorb the weight of the doctor’s words. > > DAVID (whispering) A year… > > Dr. Jameson places a comforting hand on David’s shoulder. > > DR. JAMESON I’m truly sorry, David. We’ll do everything we can to make you as comfortable as possible and provide the necessary support. > > David nods, trying to maintain composure. > > DAVID Thank you, Doctor. I appreciate your honesty. > > Dr. Jameson exits, leaving David alone in the suffocating silence of the room. His mind races, grappling with the devastating reality that his time is running out. > > FADE OUT. > > To be continued… I pasted that into my script writing software (Fade In) to see how long that was: its about a page and a half, so about a minute onscreen and the plot is just MOVING along. David is in school for about 30 seconds then gets WHISKED to the doctors office to get diagnosed. For comparison: here’s the original pilot script: > **[Breaking-Bad-pilot-script.pdf](https://kinodramaturg.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Breaking-Bad-pilot-script.pdf)** It starts with a teaser. A focus on cow shit. SPLAT. A car. A driver. Wearing a gas mask. And white underpants. Heres the opening scene for reference. The shooting script differs from the original, which is typical. Things can change anywhere in the process: sometimes on the day, sometimes in post-production. And in television, especially in the old system leading up to 2020, there would be a writer on set that would make those change. (TW, contains two dead bodies and Walter White in white underpants) > **[\- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m07slv7BP6o%2F)** > > Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. I won’t be posting the rest of the ChatGPT script, but what I will say is that by page 2 David is confessing to his wife that he is not only dying, but: > [@ChatGPT](#): > > DAVID > I’ve learned about a world that exists beneath the surface, a world where people manufacture and sell drugs. I’m a chemist, Emily. I have the knowledge to make something valuable, something that can provide for our family even after I’m gone. Which of course, is just shocking to his wife. > [@ChatGPT](#): > > EMILY > You want to become a… a drug manufacturer? David, that’s illegal, dangerous! So this is about two minutes of screentime here. No character development. Just plot. ChatGPT gave me two more pages of them lying in bed having the most inane conversation. > [@ChatGPT](#): > > EMILY > (nodding) > Okay, David. Let’s do this. Let’s take control of our destiny and build a future for our family. But promise me, promise me that we won’t lose sight of who we are, that we won’t let this darkness consume us. > > David’s voice is filled with sincerity and love as he makes his vow. > > DAVID > I promise, Emily. We’ll stay true to ourselves, no matter what. We’ll fight for our family and emerge from this darkness stronger than ever. I repeat: TWO PAGES OF THIS. And the dialog doesn’t get any better. > [@ChatGPT](#): > > DAVID > (appreciative) > Thank you, Ben. We won’t let you down. We’re committed to making this work, to securing our family’s future. > > BEN > (serious) > Good. Because this is not a game. The drug business is dangerous, unforgiving. If you’re in, you’re in. There’s no turning back. > > EMILY > (determined) > We understand the risks, Ben. We’re willing to do whatever it takes. Then a few more pages like this: > [@ChatGPT](#): > > DAVID > (looking at Emily) > We have no choice but to try, Emily. We’ve taken this path for our family’s future. We’ll learn, adapt, and protect one another. > > Emily takes David’s hand, her love and determination matching his own. > > EMILY > We’ll face this together, no matter what comes our way. Our family is worth fighting for. Several pages later: > [@ChatGPT](#): > > EMILY > (firmly) > Promise me, David, that we won’t let this define us. That we won’t let it consume our lives and the values we hold dear. > > David looks deep into Emily’s eyes, his commitment unwavering. > > DAVID > I promise, Emily. We won’t let this world change who we are. We’ll navigate it, survive it, and when it’s all over, we’ll rebuild our lives on our own terms. > > They share a moment of silent understanding, their love and determination acting as a beacon of hope amidst the darkness. On about page eight we are randomly introduced to David’s daughter, Lily. She is 8 years old and standing beside her locker. _At High School_. And thats where ChatGPT gave up. But only after giving me this final notice: > [@ChatGPT](#): > > Note: “Shattered Bonds” is a work of fiction that explores morally complex themes. It is important to remember the consequences and illegality of drug production and trafficking in real life. I can imagine that whatever AI system the studios would use would be marginally better than this utter dribble. But only marginally. But _this_ is what a draft script created by AI based on a pitch designed to “hit the right verticals” would look like. And if you were given the task of rewriting this dribble, where the hell would you start? Here’s a bit of insight into the actual Breaking Bad Writers room. > [@Guardian](#): > > “The worst thing the French ever gave us is the auteur theory,” he said flatly. “It’s a load of horseshit. You don’t make a movie by yourself, you certainly don’t make a TV show by yourself. You invest people in their work. You make people feel comfortable in their jobs; you keep people talking.” > > In his room, he said, all writers were equal, an approach that he insisted had less to do with being a Pollyanna than with pure, selfish practicality. “There’s nothing more powerful to a showrunner than a truly invested writer,” he said. “That writer will fight the good fight.” > > … > > In the midst of the endless rewrites, in 2005, Gilligan was on the phone with an old friend and fellow X-Files writer Thomas Schnauz. The two were complaining about the state of the movie business and wondering what they might be qualified to do instead. > > “Maybe we can be greeters at Walmart,” Gilligan said. > > “Maybe we can buy an RV and put a meth lab in the back,” said Schnauz. > > “As he said that, an image popped into my head of a character doing exactly that: an Everyman character who decides to ‘break bad’ and become a criminal,” Gilligan recalled. It was a powerful enough image that he got off the phone and began jotting down notes. The heart of the show came together in a hurry. > **[Inside the Breaking Bad writers' room: how Vince Gilligan runs the show](https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/sep/20/breaking-bad-writers-room-vince-gilligan)** > > As excitement mounts ahead of the finale of hit US TV show Breaking Bad, Brett Martin sits in as showrunner Vince Gilligan and his writing team tease the much-acclaimed drama into life Its _people_ that make the difference. Its writers. Its conversation. Its life experience. Its random thoughts that just pop into your head. Breaking Bad came about because someone made a joke about buying an “RV and put a meth lab in the back”. From that joke came an image, and that image turned into characters, and into a story. This is what writers do. While some people are making the argument that “rewriters would get paid less” and while that is true, really kinda misses the point. If writers aren’t pitching the stories, if writers aren’t breaking the stories, if writers aren’t writing the scripts, if writers aren’t on set to make changes on the fly, and if the Showrunner (the person who manages the entire production) doesn’t come from the writers room…then the very nature of television will change. If writers aren’t breaking the story and only come onboard once the draft AI scripts are written, then they won’t have the time, resources nor the authority to upend the entire process. Will the rewriter be able to add the teaser scene of Walter/David in gasmask and white underpants? Or move the revelation that Walter/David is sick off the first page and spend a bit of time on character development? Again, probably not. Because if they did, then why do you need the AI draft in the first place? What value is it adding here? If the script is fundumentally unfilmable, if the story hasn’t been broken and only exists in sweeping, extemely general outlines, what even is the point? The writers room evolved the way it did for some very good reasons. As Gilligan writes in the article above, “don’t make a TV show by yourself.” “That writer will fight the good fight.” In the writers room they argue about who lives and dies. What motivates a particular character. They write on whiteboards. They use sticky notes. They map out seasons. They “write the show bible.” And when the show goes into production, and they are on location and one of the actors injures his leg meaning he has to sit down for the rest of his scenes, the writer steps in to rewrite accordingly. Why the WGA are striking is because even without adding AI to the mix, the studios have already meddled with the process. You can go back and read the other thread where I provide real world examples. But writers rooms are getting smaller and shorter, writers are getting paid less, getting fewer opportunities, but expected to work significantly harder. Diversity in the writers room went _down_ last year, and AI would drive it down even further. And significantly, the pipeline to showrunner is drying up. By not allowing writers on set it means they will never learn what it takes to run a production. _This_ is what the issue is here. The executives don’t understand the creative process. They want to turn television into _content_. Which _might_ hit the right verticals, and it _might_ get them the numbers to impress the shareholders. But we won’t be seeing the likes of Breaking Bad again. Or even the likes of the Big Bang Theory. Because _writers don’t just write scripts_. They are an essential part of a larger creative process and if you take them away it isn’t going to be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/43 "2023-05-19T14:40:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Studios will do whatever turns a profit, as they always have. Not sure artistic integrity or quality has had much to do with it over the last few years. You have suggested a couple times that if the product is crap, that’s a self-solving problem, though. That’s only true to the extent artistic integrity has anything to do with it. And the labor are the ones who have artistic integrity and care about artistic integrity. The problem will not solve itself if labor doesn’t have a seat at the table. The end result will be churning out more iterations of the same work product, tweaked to be minimally marketable by exploited creatives trying to make ends meet, and everyone but the studio will lose. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/44 "2023-05-19T15:05:36Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Your stance is basically that change is scary and might disrupt the status quo, therefore it must be stopped. Reflect for a moment what that makes you: a conservative. What a ridiculously incorrect summary of my position. It’s like you haven’t bothered to read what I said. There’s no purpose in a back-and-forth with you when you’re this far off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/45 "2023-05-19T15:17:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s never going to fly. If AI has utility in the creative process it’ll be used, if it is worse than a human, it won’t. Either way it is a problem that solves itself. It’s not about being better or worse, its free labor vs paid labor. They want AI writers so they don’t have to pay real ones. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/46 "2023-05-19T15:53:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What a ridiculously incorrect summary of my position. Your position is _not_ “our system is based on something being hard and scarce, and this tool might make it easy and abundant. This tool must be hobbled by new government regulations to maintain the scarcity”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/47 "2023-05-19T15:58:06Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Your position is _not_ “our system is based on something being hard and scarce, and this tool might make it easy and abundant. This tool must be hobbled by new government regulations to maintain the scarcity”? The game you propose is: 1. I make a complex post. 2. You make a ridiculous misinterpretation of that post. 3. I reject that misinterpretation. 4. You continue making misinterpretations and ask me to defend them. I decline to play this game with you. If you want to know my position, I’ll refer you to my posts, not to your summaries of them. Reading my posts is the price of admission to discussing the subject with me, and if you’re not interested in that price, I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/48 "2023-05-19T16:00:26Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > its free labor vs paid labor. They want AI writers so they don’t have to pay real ones. There’s nothing inherently wrong, _per se_, with getting machines to do something instead of having human workers do it. The issue, as I see it, is whether the uses of AI that the writers are complaining about are just a matter of John Henry complaining about the use of a steam drill, or whether it’s something worse, ethically (e.g. it’s a way to make use of the work of human writers without fairly compensating them) and/or artistically (e.g. it will only produce hacky crap). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/49 "2023-05-19T16:03:25Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > There’s nothing inherently wrong, _per se_, with getting machines to do something instead of having human workers do it. > > The issue, as I see it, is whether the uses of AI that the writers are complaining about are just a matter of John Henry complaining about the use of a steam drill, or whether it’s something worse, ethically (e.g. it’s a way to make use of the work of human writers without fairly compensating them) and/or artistically (e.g. it will only produce hacky crap). Well seeing as how “AI” is basically just copying what already exists and not actually creating anything I think there is currently good reason to not be cool with that. Maybe when some real AI actually exists instead of glorified parsers the discussion could be brought up again, right now its just taking the writers work for free. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/50 "2023-05-19T16:06:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you want to know my position, I’ll refer you to my posts I have read your posts where _that is what you are saying_. I quote: > The law reflects that difference: I’m allowed to riff, but I’m not allowed to plagiarize. Riffing involves enough of my own labor that I can legitimately treat it as my own work; plagiarism doesn’t. Riffing is allowed; plagiarism isn’t. > > AI changes that calculation. Riffing with AI is trivially easy, involving very little labor. Then you admit that what is being done probably isn’t actually plagiarism and isn’t illegal, but laws should be changed to make it so. Again I quote: > There’s nothing in the law currently to prevents its use in this manner (AFAICT), but the law could be a lot better. I think I have summarized your position quite accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/51 "2023-05-19T16:08:43Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I think I have summarized your position quite accurately. I agree that you think that. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/52 "2023-05-19T16:13:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree that you think that. Care to tell me which part I got wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/53 "2023-05-19T16:22:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you want to know my position, I’ll refer you to my posts, not to your summaries of them. Between the previous thread and this one, you have made quite a few posts, and I have not read all of them. But the ones that I have read have left me with somewhat the same impression that @Darren_Garrison seems to have: that your objection to AI seems to be that it makes things too easy, that it removes the labor involved. (The sentence he quoted: “Riffing with AI is trivially easy, involving very little labor” is one example of this.) Several days ago, back in the previous thread, I remember thinking that you had failed to explain why this is any different from the countless other examples of labor-saving devices throughout history where a machine, or a human being using a machine, can do something much more quickly and with much less labor, than a human being alone, or why this is bad. Though, as I said, I have not read everything you’ve said on the issue since then, so I don’t know whether you’ve explained this satisfactorily elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/54 "2023-05-19T16:38:37Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Between the previous thread and this one, you have made quite a few posts, and I have not read all of them. But the ones that I have read have left me with somewhat the same impression that @Darren_Garrison seems to have: that your objection to AI seems to be that it makes things too easy, that it removes the labor involved. People should get paid for their labor. Private property–at least according to Lockean rationales–exists because people combine their labor with the natural world, making a part of the natural world that is theirs to do with as they will. Other folks who did not contribute that labor may not use that property without the owner’s permission. Intellectual property works along similar lines. People combine their labor with the world of ideas, making a conceptual “space” that is theirs to do with as they will. Other folks who did not contribute that labor may not use that intellectual property without the owner’s permission. That’s the theory. In practice, it’s led to copyright law (what Darren might characterize as “government regulations” that hobble tools such as the printing press or phonograph in order to “maintain the scarcity”) and a complex web of court cases finding the line between inspiration and infringement, between parody and plagiarism. There’s no obvious bright line, but the guiding principle has generally been whether the artist has put in enough of their own labor to make the work their own. AI is a fundamentally new technology. No individual human can read three million novels in order to gain inspiration; no individual human can realistically read 1% of that and still have time to create anything. The labor mix is completely upended by this new technology. It renders our old laws around copyright obsolete. We need to create new laws that recognize this new reality. How do we acknowledge the intellectual labor that goes into creating new works, and give the owners a reasonable right to protect the fruits of their labor? The underlying principles remain the same, but the specifics must change. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/55 "2023-05-19T16:41:40Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Care to tell me which part I got wrong? For the last time: I decline your game. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/56 "2023-05-19T16:54:13Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You have suggested a couple times that if the product is crap, that’s a self-solving problem, though. Yes, if it is bad enough people will stop paying and if the AI is the cause of it it’ll stop being used. If they can still make a profit off a crap product then absolutely why not use AI if it is cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/57 "2023-05-19T16:56:14Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s not about being better or worse, its free labor vs paid labor. They want AI writers so they don’t have to pay real ones. Yes, if something can be automated, still create a product that sells and yet be cheaper to produce then that is what companies will do. If by using real people they can make a better product that gives them more profit then that is what they will do. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/58 "2023-05-19T16:57:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For the last time: I decline your game. You seem to think am being dishonest and “playing games” with you, but I honestly do think my summary is an accurate representation of your verbose position. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/59 "2023-05-19T17:02:31Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > You seem to think am being dishonest and “playing games” with you, but I honestly do think my summary is an accurate representation of your verbose position. Dude. You summarized my position as “change is scary.” You apparently think that’s accurate, and absent any deep reflection from you on the inadequacy of your summaries, that’s the end of it. We’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263/60 "2023-05-19T17:05:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Yes, if something can be automated, still create a product that sells and yet be cheaper to produce then that is what companies will do. Yes, but as far as I’m concerned, the problem is that they’re using other folks’ intellectual property in an unanticipated way that’s inadequately covered by current law and inadequately protects intellectual property. Allow people to opt into this program with their own intellectual property, and the automation is much more ethical. But externalizing the costs in order to make a cheaper product is both part of our capitalist tradition and deeply sucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-strike-ai-demands-unlikely-to-succeed/984263.md?page=4)