# Writers who were virgins **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989 "2006-11-18T23:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/1 "2006-11-18T23:42:57Z")
I got to thinking the other day about how many of my favorite writers lived sexless lives. It amazes me that they wrote such interesting works while missing out on a huge slice of life. The celibates include: Emily Dickinson Jane Austen Henry David Thoreau Lewis Carroll Elizabeth Goudge Henry James (though he may possibly have had a brief gay fling in late middle age.) Maybe P.G. Wodehouse (some biographers, not all, think P.G.W. never consummated his marriage and that his life was as chaste as Bertie Wooster’s.) Can you think of any other examples of perennially virginal writers? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/2 "2006-11-18T23:59:57Z")
Supposedly [Immanuel Kant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant) and [Sir Issac Newton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issac_Newton) (although he wasn’t a writer of fiction and/or essays). ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/3 "2006-11-19T00:05:38Z")
Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/4 "2006-11-19T00:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. [/QUOTE] Baloney. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/5 "2006-11-19T00:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. [/QUOTE] Proper according to whom? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/6 "2006-11-19T00:18:15Z")
Proper according to (a) the original meaning of the word _virgin_ as a sexually immature female and (b) my own convictions, which are that _virgin_ tends to infantilize adults and emasculate males. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/7 "2006-11-19T00:19:21Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. [/QUOTE] Not according to the OED: > [@](#): > > 1. A youth or man who has remained in a state of chastity. > > c1330 Arth. & Merl. 8913 (K.), is Naciens..bicome prest, messe to sing; Virgine of his bodi he was. c1386 CHAUCER Pars. T. 950 Virginitee baar oure lord Ihesu crist, and virgine was hym selue. It wasn’t even all that older than the usage for a woman, with a first cite of only 20 years earlier (there was an older version that meant not just chaste, but pious, and only referred to early Christian times). ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/8 "2006-11-19T00:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. [/QUOTE] It seems that the word virgin has applied to men or women of any age since 1300, so you’ll have a tough time defending this point. Add Dante to your list. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/9 "2006-11-19T00:27:46Z")
Thanks for all the cites, but fuck the OED. The OED never helped me get any in college, and the connotations of _virgin_ and _virginity_ didn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![hawksgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed655f/32.png) [@hawksgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawksgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/10 "2006-11-19T00:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] my own convictions, which are that _virgin_ tends to infantilize adults and emasculate males. [/QUOTE] I’d hate to see what it does to adult males. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/11 "2006-11-19T00:32:45Z")
Friedrich Nietzsche. A good woman would have sorted him out. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/12 "2006-11-19T00:33:16Z")
You should have known me in college. Some days, about the only thing keeping me from climbing a tower armed to the teeth was that I was 100% gutless and hated firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/13 "2006-11-19T00:33:45Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] It seems that the word virgin has applied to men or women of any age since 1300, so you’ll have a tough time defending this point. Add Dante to your list. [/QUOTE] Dante? Gosh! I never knew that. Thanks, Walter. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/14 "2006-11-19T00:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] You should have known me in college. Some days, about the only thing keeping me from climbing a tower armed to the teeth was that I was 100% gutless and hated firearms. [/QUOTE] Doug, your inability to get laid is not the topic of this thread. I’m interested in how Henry James and Jane Austen managed to craft exquisite depictions of human relations despite never having indulged in sexual dalliance. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/15 "2006-11-19T00:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] Doug, your inability to get laid is not the topic of this thread. I’m interested in how Henry James and Jane Austen managed to craft exquisite depictions of human relations despite never having indulged in sexual dalliance. [/QUOTE] I’ll focus on Austen because I don’t know anything about James. I don’t see anything in Austen’s books that would require a sexual relationship to learn. She’s obviously a good observer. She has parents. She has friends. She has a sister. She could easily have been in love once or a hundred times. So, it doesn’t surprise me. I think any person who talks with enough people would be able to piece together anything they haven’t experienced personally. After all, most authors are only one sex, so they have to piece together the other sex from observation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/16 "2006-11-19T00:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Only the women writers could ever have _properly_ been virgins, and then only until their age of majority. Everyone on the list should really be called celibate. [/QUOTE] No, celibate means deliberatly abstaining from sexual relations. It doesn’t mean never having sexual relations. I can sleep around for the next twenty years, and then join a monastery and become celibate. There is no term in the English language for a man who has never had any sex at all, except virgin. Which, as has been pointed out, has been used in that sense for over seven hundred years. > [@](#): > > Proper according to (a) the original meaning of the word virgin as a sexually immature female and (b) my own convictions, which are that virgin tends to infantilize adults and emasculate males. Which is a function of how society views men who have never had sex, not the word “virgin” itself. Using a different word isn’t going to change that. If people started to use “celibate” in the way you want it used, then “celibate” would have those exact same connotations. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/17 "2006-11-19T00:59:35Z")
I was mistaken about Dante. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/18 "2006-11-19T01:02:47Z")
[Hans Christian Andersen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Christian_Andersen) was probably a virgin. He was abused by his schoolmaster in his youth but his private journals tell of his refusal to have sexual relations and his release through masturbation. His biographers note several homosexual infatuations but no relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/19 "2006-11-19T01:03:55Z")
[QUOTE=Scissorjack] Friedrich Nietzsche. A good woman would have sorted him out. [/QUOTE] While he seems to have lived without sexual _relationships_, he did have sex at least once. Or got syphilis some other way. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989/20 "2006-11-19T01:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I’ll focus on Austen because I don’t know anything about James. I don’t see anything in Austen’s books that would require a sexual relationship to learn. She’s obviously a good observer. She has parents. She has friends. She has a sister. She could easily have been in love once or a hundred times. So, it doesn’t surprise me. I think any person who talks with enough people would be able to piece together anything they haven’t experienced personally. After all, most authors are only one sex, so they have to piece together the other sex from observation. [/QUOTE] I’ve often wondered about the adulterers in _Mansfield Park_. Jane gives such a good depiction of them and how their affair develops and plays out. How much did Jane know about the actual mechanics of sexual intercourse? Would she have known what constituted an adulterous act? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-who-were-virgins/380989.md?page=2)