# Writing sign language
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 22, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415 "2011-10-22T02:44:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/1 "2011-10-22T02:44:47Z")
Is there a written form of, say, American Sign Language? If there is, why does it not seem to be all that common? If not, how do signers do things that speakers would do with writing? I suppose they could make videos, much as speakers make voice recordings, but still, it seems that there are many advantages to writing that as far as I can tell signers don’t have.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/2 "2011-10-22T02:49:07Z")
The Deaf are quite capable of writing in English. It’s not like their only language is ASL.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/3 "2011-10-22T03:50:23Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> The Deaf are quite capable of writing in English. It’s not like their only language is ASL.
But that’s not the question. ASL is a language quite independent of English, so and ASL “speaker” would have to learn an entirely new language to write in English.
It’s an interesting question. If two ASL signers (I guess that’s a better verb than speaker) write to each other, can they do so in ASL rather than English? According to wikipedia, no.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/4 "2011-10-22T04:14:30Z")
There’s no such thing as “written ASL”. Deaf people use written English, although sometimes in an ASL-like style.
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### Author:  [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/5 "2011-10-22T04:23:04Z")
Yeah, there’s a way to do it, but it never really took off. For the life of me though, I can’t remember what it’s called. Give me a few minutes to Google it, and if I don’t find anything I’ll look again tomorrow morning.
Here ya go:
> **[Stokoe notation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokoe_notation)**
>
> Stokoe notation (/ˈstoʊki/) is the first phonemic script used for sign languages. It was created by William Stokoe for American Sign Language (ASL), with Latin letters and numerals used for the shapes they have in fingerspelling, and iconic glyphs to transcribe the position, movement, and orientation of the hands. It was first published as the organizing principle of Sign Language Structure: An Outline of the Visual Communication Systems of the American Deaf (1960), and later also used in A The S...
there are other methods too, but they’ve all pretty much gone nowhere. Nobody’s interested.
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### Author:  [@StarsApart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarsApart)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/6 "2011-10-22T04:27:31Z")
There’s [SignWriting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting), and glossing (English words written in all capital letters), but neither method has really taken off. Most ASL speakers write in English, but as ASL is its own separate language, there’s some words that don’t have a direct English translation; it can get tricky.
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### Author:  [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/7 "2011-10-22T07:33:42Z")
> [@Washoe](#):
>
> there are other methods too, but they’ve all pretty much gone nowhere. Nobody’s interested.
And I guess that’s precisely what strikes me as strange.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/8 "2011-10-22T10:05:12Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#):
>
> And I guess that’s precisely what strikes me as strange.
If you think about it, any method of writing that is devised for sign language is going to be more or less like learning a new language anyway. Maybe you would use characters, like Kanji, and since it’s not directly related to ASL, might as well just learn written English and kill two birds with one stone. A deaf person in the US who could not read and write English would be at a considerable disadvantage.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/9 "2011-10-22T11:55:48Z")
Extremely relevant news story: [dictionary in Zimbabwe unfies differing regional sign languages](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14656983).
> [@](#):
>
> Representatives from all of the country’s provinces worked on the year-long project, bringing together the various dialects that have evolved.
>
> Previous sign dictionaries had been rejected by Zimbabwe’s deaf community as they were not compiled by deaf people.
> [@](#):
>
> Sign language is not linked to a spoken language, as the signs precede the words and in Zimbabwe the various dialects have generally evolved in schools for the deaf.
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### Author:  [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/10 "2011-10-22T18:40:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> If you think about it, any method of writing that is devised for sign language is going to be more or less like learning a new language anyway.
How is that? I was under the impression that ASL has phonemes of a sort, and it doesn’t seem too hard to put them in some order with some set of symbols.
> [@](#):
>
> Maybe you would use characters, like Kanji, and since it’s not directly related to ASL, might as well just learn written English and kill two birds with one stone.
I guess the situation is similar to the days when Latin was the major language of communication. Sure, you could write in the your vernacular, but the audience was far greater in Latin, and that justified the effort to learn a language for only writing purposes.
> [@](#):
>
> A deaf person in the US who could not read and write English would be at a considerable disadvantage.
I hadn’t thought of that, but of course, this is true.
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### Author:  [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/11 "2011-10-23T03:44:40Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#):
>
> How is that? I was under the impression that ASL has phonemes of a sort, and it doesn’t seem too hard to put them in some order …
No sound no phonemes.
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### Author:  [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/12 "2011-10-23T03:48:56Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#):
>
> And I guess that’s precisely what strikes me as strange.
Because ASL is language in motion. It doesn’t work well when written. It’s not natural, really.
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### Author:  [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/13 "2011-10-23T03:50:54Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#):
>
> No sound no phonemes.
That’s not true. Hand shape or mouth shape/face expression _are_ ASL phonemes, I believe. Distance/spatial cues are also important, though they are perhaps under a different linguistic label.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/14 "2011-10-23T20:24:13Z")
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that ASL has structures which serve the same purpose for that language as phonemes serve for oral languages.
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### Author:  [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/15 "2011-10-23T20:34:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that ASL has structures which serve the same purpose for that language as phonemes serve for oral languages.
… and which they call “phonemes”.
[Cite](http://www.handspeak.com/byte/p/index.php?byte=phonology):
> [@](#):
>
> Phonology is the study of phonemes, the smallest units of language. It is concerned with how the units or phonemes are organized in a language, how they are combined to form a word, and how these phonemes interact with each other. Phonemes are equivalent to “parameters” and “cheremes” in sign language, but nowadays linguists use the terms phonology and phonemes in sign language linguistics.
[Another](http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-layout/phonemes.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> Phoneme: Smallest unit of language.
>
> For example, in the English word “dog,” the letter “d” is a phoneme. Individual letters in English are phonemes because you can’t break them into smaller parts and they have no meaning by themselves.
>
> ASL phonemes are comprised of:
>
> handshape
> location
> movement
> palm orientation
> moves
> holds
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/16 "2011-10-23T20:57:26Z")
Yes, but what would be the purpose of writing a phonetic (in the broader sense used above) sign language? If you want to represent the exact sequence of motions used in sign language, just use a video camera. Why bother inventing a system of accurate transcription of movement, handshape, facial expression and so on, when nowadays you can just record yourself?
Meanwhile, English literacy is absolutely critical if you’re living in the United States, it’s even more important for the deaf than for the hearing. You’ve got to teach kids to read and write in English anyway, so start there. And now what’s the need for a written form of ASL?
I can easily imagine a system of notation that starts with the sorts of pictures you see in signing dictionaries, evolving to a simpler notation. Instead ofa detailed picture of a hand in a particular shape, you have a symbol that represents the shape. Then you have arrows to indicate movement, and multiple symbols to represent changes over time. And then you have something that’s no easier to read than watching a video of someone actually signing.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writing-sign-language/600415/17 "2011-10-24T12:30:50Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Yes, but what would be the purpose of writing a phonetic (in the broader sense used above) sign language? If you want to represent the exact sequence of motions used in sign language, just use a video camera. Why bother inventing a system of accurate transcription of movement, handshape, facial expression and so on, when nowadays you can just record yourself?
Because you can’t print the recordings.
One of the departments of the Business and Languages School of Heriot-Watt University (which I attended a couple years back) is British Sign Language. There were several research reports on the corkboards about a BSL/English dictionary; one of the biggest difficulties was in representing and ordering the Signs, from what I read there.