# WTC Collapse: Need airtight answer please! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226 "2014-01-31T19:14:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/161 "2014-02-04T02:51:33Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Sorry for this semi-hijack, but regarding Dr. Steven Jones’s credibility … is he the physicist from Brigham Young University who reported in the late 1990’s that he had repeated [Dr. Duncan MacDougall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor))’s experiments of weighing people as they died to see if a soul had mass, only instead of weighing dying humans, it was done by dunking insects sealed in plastic bags into liquid nitrogen, and that his lab had gathered evidence that the animals did indeed lose a tiny but consistent amount of weight at the point of death? > > If that is indeed him, would this not indicate (along with some of his other claims) that he has occasionally reported scientific findings that **(A)** most other scientists would find questionable, **(B)** are out of his field of expertise, and **(C)** lend support to his pre-existing beliefs? If so, I suspect that I would probably regard his 9/11 conclusions regarding nano-thermite with even more skepticism than I already have. > > Am I completely mis-remembering this? I don’t think so. Jones is more famous for being shoulder deep in Cold Fusion nonsense (although far from being the villain of that tale). Jones also published a paper on Jesus visiting the Indians or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/162 "2014-02-04T02:58:14Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I don’t think so. Jones is more famous for being shoulder deep in Cold Fusion nonsense (although far from being the villain of that tale). He was at BYU, though. Class of '73 and faculty during at least his Cold Fusion years. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/163 "2014-02-04T03:05:29Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > What percentage of the steel of the building was available for examination? > > [9-11 Research: WTC Steel Removal](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html) > > There were 2900 perimeter wall panels on each tower from the 9th floor to the top. Total weight was 27,000 tons so the average was 9+ tons. > > Can you find how many different weights there were and the quantity of each weight? There are more than 200 buildings around the world over 800 feet tall and gravity is pretty much the same all over the planet. Can you find the tons of steel and tons of concrete on each level of any of them? > > People who can BELIEVE on the basis of insufficient data do not need models. > > psik people who believe what exactly? Gravity? What point do you think your making? Your sentences don’t make sense. How many different weights? There was one weight and that would be the remaining floors about the weakened section of building with missing and bent support columns. Again, what part of [this picture](http://x11drone.0catch.com/_webimages/wtc1_gash.JPG) do you not understand? There is a serious number of columns missing and the remainder are exposed to the heat of the fire. All they have to do is BEND and their structural integrity is shot. There is nothing new in this information. What they learned from this attack is to run more than one water manifold to the top so that if one is breached there is redundancy. Had they been able to extinguish the fire they might have saved the building. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/164 "2014-02-04T03:32:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > people who believe what exactly? Gravity? What point do you think your making? Your sentences don’t make sense. Believe that the top 15%, or less, of a skyscraper can fall straight down and destroy all of the support structure below in less than 26 seconds. This is what supposedly happened to the north tower. So there is the little matter of the Conservation of Momentum. But then how can that be analysed without knowing the steel and concrete on every level? In fact how can the potential energy of the building be accurately computed without that data? Didn’t the building have to be bottom heavy just because of the steel distribution? Does it take TWELVE YEARS to figure that out? :smack: But this is getting away from the ejections that the OP was talking about. They occurred multiple floors below the so called “collapse” front. psik ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/165 "2014-02-04T03:37:30Z")
So what I’m taking away from this is that the Tacoma Narrows bridge was definitely blown up by the Bush administration, right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/166 "2014-02-04T03:53:04Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Believe that the top 15%, or less, of a skyscraper can fall straight down and destroy all of the support structure below in less than 26 seconds. This is what supposedly happened to the north tower. > > So there is the little matter of the Conservation of Momentum. But then how can that be analysed without knowing the steel and concrete on every level? In fact how can the potential energy of the building be accurately computed without that data? At this point you are arguing about what direction the deck chairs were facing on the Titanic. Engineers study the cause of failure. Once they get the data they rarely need to do much post-failure analysis. Its not worth the effort to them or their profession. Just because someone whines that every part needs to be measure does not make it so. If a train slams into another train at high speed, you probably don’t need to measure the diameter of the train’s wheels to get a ‘full picture’. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/167 "2014-02-04T03:53:46Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Believe that the top 15%, or less, of a skyscraper can fall straight down and destroy all of the support structure below in less than 26 seconds. This is what supposedly happened to the north tower. well exactly were is it supposed to fall if not down? It didn’t supposedly happen, it happened. got in video and everything. It accelerated exactly as it should have. > [@psikeyhackr](#): > > So there is the little matter of the Conservation of Momentum. But then how can that be analysed without knowing the steel and concrete on every level? In fact how can the potential energy of the building be accurately computed without that data? > > Didn’t the building have to be bottom heavy just because of the steel distribution? > > Does it take TWELVE YEARS to figure that out? :smack: > > But this is getting away from the ejections that the OP was talking about. They occurred multiple floors below the so called “collapse” front. > > psik you keep spouting a bunch of nonsense but you haven’t made an actual point. What is your point? The buildings were struck by large aircraft fuel of fuel. We know this to be true. The process severely weakened the building. We know this to be true. The building was on fire. We know this to be true. The top section of the building weighed a lot. The precise weight of this doesn’t matter in order to understand that the support structures were missing and compromised to the point that this enormous weight eventually collapsed it. Once that happens the energy from this motion is too much for each floor below and they collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/168 "2014-02-04T04:23:16Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > A 1:100th scale model of the north tower would only be 13’ 9" and would not have to be built in a wind tunnel. And they could use 3D printers. The support material would have to be weaker relative to the weight to compensate for the square cube law but we would still have to have accurate data on the mass distribution. And if all this was done and the results were supportive of the non-Truther view, you’d then change your view? Or would you just say that those who conducted the experiment were also in on the conspiracy, or complain that the model wasn’t perfect or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/169 "2014-02-04T04:31:29Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I have a theory. The towers never existed at all in the first place. Anyone who ever claimed to go there, any photographs or videos you’ve ever seen of it, or even any personal memories of going into the buildings or touching them are hoaxes planted by the government. There’s a CT out there that the towers had never been occupied at all and were hollow shells. That’s why the rubble pile was so small. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/170 "2014-02-04T04:37:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So what I’m taking away from this is that the Tacoma Narrows bridge was definitely blown up by the Bush administration, right? Funny you should mention it. One of FDR’s technical advisors was [Vannevar Bush.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanevar_Bush) Bush was a founding member of Majestic 12 and MIT named its Center for _Materials Science and Engineering_ the “Vannevar Bush Building” in his honor. While it is claimed he was not related to the presidential bushes, there is a strong family resemblance. :dubious: Wheels within wheels, sheeple! OTOH, **psikeyhackr** never studied gymnastics and clapped the excess powdered chalk off his hands. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/171 "2014-02-04T04:45:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > comment on gravity? Do you understand the weight of the building above the impact area? It was over a million lbs of weight on a damaged structure subjected to heat. > > What don’t you understand? > > what part of[this picture](http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/1600/6-1_wtc1-impact-hole.0.jpg) with the missing supports are you in doubt of? Yeah, I always wonder what these CTers think should have happened in this circumstance. Like, really, they think the top 30 floors could fall on what was left of the floors that were basically obliterated by fire and nothing would happen? That’s just…weird. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/172 "2014-02-04T04:48:23Z")
> [@John\_Morrow](#): > > WTC Collapse: Need airtight answer please! And the answer is that the buildings were not airtight after floors started collapsing and windows broke, and all that plaster dust could get out. That may be obvious if you think about it, but some people seem incapable of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/173 "2014-02-04T04:54:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well exactly were is it supposed to fall if not down? It didn’t supposedly happen, it happened. got in video and everything. It accelerated exactly as it should have. No, obviously it’s supposed to fall down in slow motion. > [@](#): > > you keep spouting a bunch of nonsense but you haven’t made an actual point. What is your point? The buildings were struck by large aircraft fuel of fuel. We know this to be true. The process severely weakened the building. We know this to be true. The building was on fire. We know this to be true. The top section of the building weighed a lot. The precise weight of this doesn’t matter in order to understand that the support structures were missing and compromised to the point that this enormous weight eventually collapsed it. Once that happens the energy from this motion is too much for each floor below and they collapse. Right. Something that seems to always be missed is that each floor collapsed individually. It wasn’t 30 floors of weight falling on 70 floors, it was 30 floors falling on 1 floor, then 31 floors falling on 1 floor, then 32 floors… If the building was 31 stories high, and the top 30 floors fell on the bottom floor, would that floor collapse? Of course, and just because the building had 70 more floors stacked up doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/174 "2014-02-04T05:01:27Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, I always wonder what these CTers think should have happened in this circumstance. Like, really, they think the top 30 floors could fall on what was left of the floors that were basically obliterated by fire and nothing would happen? That’s just…weird. It’s like arguing about what’s going to happen when you stand on an empty soda can and bounce on it. “According to the laws of thermodynetics it will not crush even if it’s orange”. Mother hubbard’s son said so. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/175 "2014-02-04T05:30:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The precise weight of this doesn’t matter in order to understand that the support structures were missing and compromised to the point that this enormous weight eventually collapsed it. I’m reminded of someone, don’t recall who or where, who refused to accept any evidence of airliner debris found at the Pentagon unless provided with the part numbers of all wreckage recovered from the rubble. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/176 "2014-02-04T05:41:26Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I don’t think so. Jones is more famous for being shoulder deep in Cold Fusion nonsense (although far from being the villain of that tale). Yes, it turns out it was him. He apparently brought it into his domain (physics) by calling it a “search for a form of missing matter associated with living organisms,” in late 1996. He did report that, essentially, living organisms lost mass when they died, but I don’t know if the data was ever released or if the study was ever actually performed other than on a very limited trial basis. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/177 "2014-02-04T05:47:41Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > “search for a form of missing matter associated with living organisms” Google returns exactly two hits for that, one is this thread and the other is [here](http://www.hplx.net/eyring/Eyring/faq/spirit.txt), which appears to contain the full text of that paper toward the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/178 "2014-02-04T09:03:09Z")
Yeah, that’s where I remembered it from and where I quoted it from. I was involved in that discussion, lo those many years ago. (Although I think it’s a proposal, probably for a grant to conduct the research, rather than a paper, but later in the thread he does report that they actually measured weight loss after the insects died.) So it seems that this is the same Steve Jones involved in the 9/11 Truther movement. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/179 "2014-02-04T09:42:14Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > I am not trying to explain what caused them. I am simply saying the explanations we get are ridiculous. How remarkably convenient. It must be nice to demand everyone else do the intellectual heavy lifting. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226/180 "2014-02-04T11:39:37Z")
psikeyhackr, you didn’t answer my question in post 130. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-collapse-need-airtight-answer-please/680226.md?page=10)