# Wtc - Wtf
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [August 30, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845 "2006-08-30T22:30:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/1 "2006-08-30T22:30:30Z")
Yesterday I downloaded a surprisingly well made movie from Google Video called “911 Cover up” by chance. Today I saw it. I was strucken by some points in the movie, because same points have been lurking in the back of my mind since 9/11. Not points of conspiracy, but rather dim intuitive feelings of, “nah… it can’t really have happened like that.”
In short, it’s a conspiracy theory I never really heard of before (I’m European), regarding, of course, 9/11, and I have a few questions; but before I put them out I would like point out that I’m aware of the unlikelyhood of Great Conspiracies etc, and that I’m not interested in the Great Conspiracy as such, or opinions whether it is a conspiracy going on at all. I’m more interested in the facts. (You know, like exit wounds and smoke puffs.)
This is factual questions area, after all.
Here are my questions (not expecting anybody to answer them all):
1. Have you seen the movie, and what’s your general impression of it?
2. Is the issues put forward in this movie, something that’s discussed in America?
3. Has the movie been aired in America (or anywhere else)?
4. Is there something we should know about the men/women behind the movie?
5. Are there any good sites on ‘zie net’ that
a) with facts (or “facts”) support the factual points in the movie, and/or
b) with facts (or “facts”) refute the factual points in the movie.
Thanks for taking time, and sorry if this has been discussed before (in which case link would be appreciated – the search function… I don’t know… never finds anything…)
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/2 "2006-08-30T22:50:34Z")
If you want to discuss issues raised by the movie, why don’t you raise them?
I don’t think I should be obligated to sit through a 9/11 conspiracy theory movie to debunk it, any more than I should have to sit through a Fill\_in\_the\_blank\_theory movie to debunk it. Or support it, if it comes to that.
In other words, ask more specific questions, ones that don’t require seeing the movie first…because it could be any number of conspiracy “documentaries”. There have been a few, you know.
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### Author:  [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/3 "2006-08-30T22:57:36Z")
If this is the “Loose Change” video, then Maddox has a response for you: [There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons.](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)
Basically, in all comes down to this: If there really were a goverment conspiracy, it’s clear that the conspirators have no compunction about killing 3,000 people. If so, then why do they allow the people who made the video to live?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/4 "2006-08-30T23:02:43Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#):
>
> If this is the “Loose Change” video, then Maddox has a response for you: [There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons.](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)
>
> Basically, in all comes down to this: If there really were a goverment conspiracy, it’s clear that the conspirators have no compunction about killing 3,000 people. If so, then why do they allow the people who made the video to live?
How would killing them make the conspiracy look _less_ credible. Obviously, it would be smarter to let them speak and just paint them as kooks than it would be to add fuel to suspicions by killing them off.
I’m not a 9/11 conspiracy believer by any means but “why don’t they kill the theorists?” is not an effective rebuttal.
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/5 "2006-08-30T23:11:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> How would killing them make the conspiracy look _less_ credible. Obviously, it would be smarter to let them speak and just paint them as kooks than it would be to add fuel to suspicions by killing them off.
>
> I’m not a 9/11 conspiracy believer by any means but “why don’t they kill the theorists?” is not an effective rebuttal.
Because it’s a risk they don’t need to take. Nobody can be sure everyone will paint the naysayers as kooks, and if even one person (or group) does a real test that comes up positive, or even not entirely negative, the game is up.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/6 "2006-08-30T23:17:28Z")
Is the ‘smoke puffs’ argument the one where the CT nut points at a photo and says “Look, these smoke trails go up, then back down again, that proves there were explosives planted in the tower!”? (this is mentioned in the Penn & Teller _Bullshit!_ epsisode dealing with 911 CTs.
Because that particular photo was a still taken when the tower had already begun collapsing and what appears to be a plume of debris going up-out-down is in fact a plume of debris that is going-out-down, and is being drawn downwards nearest the tower because of the hige column of falling masonry.
It’s easy to see what’s causing it on the moving footage, easy to mistake as something else in a still photo; since the CT nuts _must_ have studied both; it’s obvious they’re talking shit and they know it.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/7 "2006-08-30T23:25:39Z")
Some delusional amatuer documentary-maker being found dead of a heroin overdose in a cheap hotel wouldn’t exactly make national news, either.
In fact, there’s hundreds of annoying people who could just disappear…or be caught in an internet child-porn sting…or with a couple of crack rocks in their car…or with a dead male prostitute in their bed.
If you’re planning massacres like 9/11 then silencing Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky and their ilk shouldn’t be very difficult, would it?
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/8 "2006-08-30T23:34:14Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#):
>
> If this is the “Loose Change” video, then Maddox has a response for you: [There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons.](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)
>
> Basically, in all comes down to this: If there really were a goverment conspiracy, it’s clear that the conspirators have no compunction about killing 3,000 people. If so, then why do they allow the people who made the video to live?
Maddox has perhaps one of the greatest quotes on the entire internet on that page
> [@](#):
>
> Watching this video is like being bukakked with stupid.
😃
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/9 "2006-08-30T23:36:29Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#):
>
> . . . I was strucken . . .
Sorry, I couldn’t get beyond this.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/10 "2006-08-30T23:38:23Z")
Ah, but you see, _allowing the conspiracy nuts to live means people will say that there is no conspiracy, because they could easily be silenced_ - it’s a double-bluff, you see, and proof-positive that there **is** really a big government conspiracy to… hold on a moment, just got to answer the door…
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### Author:  [@stockton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stockton)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/11 "2006-08-31T03:17:09Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> Sorry, I couldn’t get beyond this.
OP is not from the US. Deserves the same free pass we all give to out-of-state license plates when they don’t know where they’re going. No foul.
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### Author:  [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/12 "2006-08-31T06:57:14Z")
Moved to IMHO.
- **xash**
General Questions Moderator
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### Author:  [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/13 "2006-08-31T07:09:47Z")
Yeah well thats all rubbish, but what about this conspiracy theory.
In the USA there has been a coverup or non-reporting of the hundreds of people that jumped from the burning WTC buildings. The rest of the world knows about this, but not USAlians.
Whaddaya reckon? I cant tell for sure, since I am part of the rest of the world.
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### Author:  [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/14 "2006-08-31T09:35:03Z")
OK, sorry for being so vague in my questions. I had no idea whether this was a movie a lot of people knew about, or not.
Check it out if you have the time, it’s quite well made.
Give me a few hours and I will get back with the “smoke puffs of the 911 cover ups”, as soon as I get back from work.
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/15 "2006-08-31T09:55:29Z")
> [@antechinus](#):
>
> Yeah well thats all rubbish, but what about this conspiracy theory.
>
> In the USA there has been a coverup or non-reporting of the hundreds of people that jumped from the burning WTC buildings. The rest of the world knows about this, but not USAlians.
>
> Whaddaya reckon? I cant tell for sure, since I am part of the rest of the world.
Do you have a cite for the jumpers being not reported or covered up? It was shown on TV, still pictures in Mags, and articles all covered it.
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### Author:  [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/16 "2006-08-31T10:33:02Z")
> [@Rick](#):
>
> Do you have a cite for the jumpers being not reported or covered up? It was shown on TV, still pictures in Mags, and articles all covered it.
I heard the chap who made the [Falling Man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man) doco mention this in an interview.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/17 "2006-08-31T10:34:58Z")
> [@antechinus](#):
>
> Yeah well thats all rubbish, but what about this conspiracy theory.
>
> In the USA there has been a coverup or non-reporting of the hundreds of people that jumped from the burning WTC buildings. The rest of the world knows about this, but not USAlians.
>
> Whaddaya reckon? I cant tell for sure, since I am part of the rest of the world.
We know about it.
As mentioned, some of it was on live TV. It was reported in newspapers and magazines. There were a few still pictures. A documentary filmed on that day by two Frenchman was shown here and while it didn’t show jumpers and body parts directly, the _sound_ of people impacting was in no way edited and even pointed out by one person on the video. Many of us have access to the Internet.
It didn’t get the media coverage in the US in part because we have a cultural custom of not showing actual, real death on TV on purpose. The other factor (usually more commonly used as an explanation than the first) is that the families of the jumpers may not want to see their loved ones plummeting to their deaths every time stock footage of the WTC comes up, it would be cruel to subject the surviors to seeing their loved ones die over and over.
But there hasn’t been a “cover-up”. No one in the media or governmnet denies that people jumped. Anyone who _wants_ to see these pictures certainly can - but, like “breaking” a hyperlink to avoid people accidently seeing a possibly objectionable website, the media have agreed not to show those images on broadcast media.
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### Author:  [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/18 "2006-08-31T12:49:26Z")
Since my last post, I have seen the “9/11 Falling Man” doco on TV. In this doco it was pointed out that images in the press had the jumpers photoshopped out. Also the coroners department claimed at the time that there were no jumpers, despite evidence to the contrary.
Not that I seriously think this is a conspiracy. Just a reaction in the same direction by similar groups under the same set of cultural conditions. IMHO, it is difficult to have a successful conspiracy of more than about 7 people. As the number of conspirators increases the odds drop exponentially.
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### Author:  [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/19 "2006-09-01T00:29:40Z")
I started a new thread in “Great Debates”, if you’re interested.
Thanks **Lemur866** for pointing out that my post managed to get out of its own context. Check out the one in Greate Debates – there you have it.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc-wtf/370845/20 "2006-09-01T01:22:28Z")
> [@stockton](#):
>
> OP is not from the US. Deserves the same free pass we all give to out-of-state license plates when they don’t know where they’re going. No foul.
Unless he’s British, in which case, double foul.
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