# WTC7 collapse, new numerical results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064 "2019-09-11T19:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/281 "2019-09-18T16:23:39Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Show your work. Who is this “we” to whom you refer? > > Show your work. > > Explosives that would “throw” would be a stunningly poor use of explosives for building demolition. Explosives best “throw” things when confined in direction (i.e. a cannon barrel). If your explosives are tossing I-Beams your are doing something remarkably wrong with your demolition project. If you are using enough explosives to toss I-beams out & downward faster than gravity I think someone would hear them even in that unpopulated, desolate wasteland of Lower Manhattan. > > Explosives in demolition projects are used to cut, not throw. No one is saying any thing about controlled demolition. This was shock and awe so that people would believe any lie hand to them. Specifically American people. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/282 "2019-09-18T16:23:57Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is bs. You know I’m talking about the initial outward force. It’s not BS. If you are talking about the initial outward force (i.e. whatever force caused the debris to fly out of the building) then my comment about the bullet experiment SHOULD have had you saying ‘oh, I didn’t know that’ or ‘oh, yeah, now I remember…yeah, this whole free fall thing is complete horseshit. Thanks for reminding me!’ Neither seem to be the case. So, again, the video that you are so fond of using for everything clearly shows debris falling faster than the collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/283 "2019-09-18T16:24:07Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is bs. You know I’m talking about the initial outward force. I hear a lot of “Because I say so” but you won’t show your work…and you certainly haven’t provided those cites you claimed we dismissed. Do you have _anything_ from any peer-reviewed sources to back up any of your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/284 "2019-09-18T16:28:11Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I don’t know what to say to this. Of course it wasn’t controlled in an old building way. that was kind of the point, shock and awe. Truthers just have no idea about how demolition works. Controlled or uncontrolled, you still have to deal with the way explosives operate. You think some guy can just toss a backpack against a column or just slap a fist sized lump of C4 on surface and your set to go. Doesn’t work that way. I mean yeah, you could do it with enough explosives and whatnot, but all that is still not going to ‘throw’ I-beams around. Of course, using that much C4 is _kinda loud and noticeable_ and no the noise is not going to be covered by the sound of the collapsing building. Your lack of knowledge of this stuff is painfully obvious, yet you keep trying to Dunnigan-Kruger your way out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/285 "2019-09-18T16:28:48Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > No one is saying any thing about controlled demolition. This was shock and awe so that people would believe any lie hand to them. Specifically American people. So what was it? If it weren’t a controlled demolition and not the official story, then what happened? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/286 "2019-09-18T16:29:35Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > No one is saying any thing about controlled demolition. I didn’t say anything about controlled demolitions. My comments could be applied the use of explosives in general. Stop trying to strawman your way out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/287 "2019-09-18T16:30:37Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is bs. You know I’m talking about the initial outward force. Caused by what? Show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/288 "2019-09-18T16:31:04Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is bs. You know I’m talking about the initial outward force. [Amazing how those bits which fall faster out of the debris cloud remained attached until their specific charges were set off.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_64RigP1Fk&t=1m) Or maybe you’re just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/289 "2019-09-18T16:36:55Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Caused by what? Show your work. It’s actually irrelevant, though it would be nice if he’d give some details on what he believes. But regardless of whether the force expelling the debris out is explosives, compression (which is what it was) or aliens, once the object is expelled out horizontally it doesn’t matter as it’s gravity that acting on it. Which brings us full circle back to falling debris verse collapsing structure and why one was faster than the other. I think split p&j is actually starting to realize there are some flaws in his understanding, which is why we aren’t seeing him respond to this, and instead attempting more diversion. Not that everything he’s said hasn’t been a diversion. Hell, getting back to an earlier comment of his when he decided to wade into this dying thread, I’d still like some specifics on how ‘science’ opposes ‘the official story’, as I’ve seen exactly zero examples. I assume his convoluted discussion about ‘free fall’ was part of this, but he was pretty unspecific. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/290 "2019-09-18T16:39:13Z")
XT, I’m not saying the entire buildings free fall though the whole collapse. I’m saying the initial collapse was at near free fall speed and it shouldn’t have been. I saying that the lower structure was explosively ejected to make so the top could fall at that speed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/291 "2019-09-18T16:43:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s actually irrelevant, though it would be nice if he’d give some details on what he believes. But regardless of whether the force expelling the debris out is explosives, compression (which is what it was) or aliens, once the object is expelled out horizontally it doesn’t matter as it’s gravity that acting on it. Which brings us full circle back to falling debris verse collapsing structure and why one was faster than the other. > > . He seems to be hinting at explosives, but won’t commit because that would mean an actual explanation as to why no such sounds were heard, etc. That said, when someone says an I-beam was “thrown” sideways from the tower what are we to assume threw it? A really good Football QB? An I-Beam cannon? When people pull out this ‘I-beams thrown sideways by demolitions!!’ I’d love to take them to a field, put an I-beam on the ground, along with every conventional explosives known to man and say “OK, make that I-beam fly, and make sure it shows no signs of explosives having been used. BTW, no other materials allowed so you can’t make a cannon.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/292 "2019-09-18T16:44:30Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > XT, I’m not saying the entire buildings free fall though the whole collapse. I’m saying the initial collapse was at near free fall speed and it shouldn’t have been. You have two claims here. Please provide proof of both. > [@](#): > > I saying that the lower structure was explosively ejected to make so the top could fall at that speed. How? ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/293 "2019-09-18T16:46:52Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > […] I saying that the lower structure was explosively ejected to make so the top could fall at that speed. I didn’t hear any explosions. There is audio/video of the collapse from hundreds of sources. Explosions of that magnitude make very loud sound which can be heard from great distances. There wasn’t any sound like that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/294 "2019-09-18T16:50:39Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > XT, I’m not saying the entire buildings free fall though the whole collapse. I’m saying the initial collapse was at near free fall speed and it shouldn’t have been. I saying that the lower structure was explosively ejected to make so the top could fall at that speed. It wasn’t, though. The initial collapse, which has been shown and modeled dozens of times was fairly slow. And the lower structure WASN’T explosively ejected. The collapse started, unsurprisingly, right at the impact site. The lower structure didn’t collapse until the weight of the upper sections fell on it, causing a cascade effect. Seriously, this is all clearly visible in the video if you turn off the Truthers narrative buzzing in the background and watch. There are several videos that show closeups the collapse, and you can see the building sag just right where the plane hit. In addition, you can clearly seem the lower part of the building standing until the collapse debris strikes it. As for the debris that is falling outward from the building, again, you can see that this is caused by the collapse compressing the floors as it is falling. Regardless, that horizontally expelled debris is clearly falling faster than the building is collapsing. Again, you can see this…you can SEE this outward debris falling around the still intact lower structure and hitting the ground BEFORE the lower structure is fully destroyed by the collapsing upper structure falling on it. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/295 "2019-09-18T16:51:30Z")
I’m don’t know how like I said. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/296 "2019-09-18T16:54:28Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m don’t know how like I said. A wizard did it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/297 "2019-09-18T16:54:45Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m don’t know how like I said. That’s funny-in a previous thread you claimed that there was a lot of evidence that thermite was used…then never told us where you got that info. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/298 "2019-09-18T16:55:38Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I saying that the lower structure was explosively ejected to make so the top could fall at that speed. While leaving the cores standing? [WTC1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIIf7ZuAcY&t=12s) [WTC2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SdkQcv2xms&t=9m56s) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/299 "2019-09-18T16:56:27Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is bs. You know I’m talking about the initial outward force. See, this is why no one believes your claims about understanding the “science” here. Because you’re making a fundamental mistake that even high school level physics classes could correct. > **[Horizontally Launched Projectile Problems](https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/Lesson-2/Horizontally-Launched-Projectiles-Problem-Solving)** > > A common practice of a Physics course is to solve algebraic word problems. The Physics Classroom demonstrates the process of analyzing and solving a problem in which a projectile is launched horizontally from an elevated position. In projectile motion, **any force that would be directed “outward” would have zero impact on the vertical movement of the object.** That’s what the earlier question about a dropped bullet vs. a bullet fired from a gun was hinting at. The only way the “force” could impact the vertical movement is if it was directed (at least partially) in an upward or downward direction. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand “the science”, no matter how much you think you do. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/300 "2019-09-18T17:00:55Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > I didn’t hear any explosions. There is audio/video of the collapse from hundreds of sources. Explosions of that magnitude make very loud sound which can be heard from great distances. There wasn’t any sound like that. Actually, there are sounds like explosives and there were many people who commented on them. Most were more like what people THINK are explosives (i.e. more like Hollywood explosives than the sharp sound of actual demolition explosives being used), and this is unsurprising. Hell, there WERE things that were exploding in the building. The plane itself, solvents and cleaning supplies, paint and other maintenance flammables, even diesel storage bunkers for generators and capacitors for batter backup systems for the buildings. Then there are pillars and support structures and the core exploding as all that weight that was designed for a static load hit it while moving downward. Lots and LOTS of things exploded. But what there wasn’t, and there is no evidence for, are building demolition explosives. There was no evidence of caps, no nests of wires or all the other myriad stuff that ACTUAL explosives need to be there to have them work. If we posit all wireless (in 2001) explosives, we have no evidence of that either. People have this idea that when you blow up stuff that it disappears, but that simply isn’t true. There would be LOTS of evidence, especially if they wired multiple floors. Some device would have failed, or some evidence would have been left. But there is literally zero evidence of this, despite multiple groups looking for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064.md?page=16)