# WTC7 collapse, new numerical results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064 "2019-09-11T19:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/61 "2019-09-12T15:34:21Z")
> [@namahoo](#): > > Hello all, > > The long-awaited study from the University of Alaska/Fairbanks was out a few days back, with appropriate media coverage. But if you missed it, here’s a heads up. > > They seem to rule out NIST’s proposed collapse mechanism and their simulation of simultaneous failure of all columns is uncannily like the real-life collapse. > > What do you make of it? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > No, what do you make of it? This? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/62 "2019-09-12T15:44:43Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > So, I’ll try again. If you want to imply or suggest that the buildings weren’t destroyed by airplanes, what happened to those airplanes and the people onboard? Well, black holes seem to be [the go-to theory](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/03/cnn-wonders-if-flight-370-went-into-black-hole.html) for mysterious airplane disappearances… ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/63 "2019-09-12T16:16:59Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > This is really the correct answer. > > I can catch a pound of iron if its dropped at a meters height. Think anyone could catch it after its fallen a mile, and is traveling at 650 km/h? Back in the 80s there was a TV show that dropped a football (American) from either a hot-air balloon or a blimp that was floating above a stadium. A footballer player (it might have been Mean Joe Greene or Rosie Grier as they both did a lot of cameo work outside of football playing) was standing in the end zone to catch the dropped ball. As I recall, it was very difficult to catch a football dropped from a few hundred feet, even for a person whose profession was catching footballs. The show may have been That’s Incredible, but could have also been 321 Contact or even the Great Space Coaster. Perhaps the show was part of a larger government conspiracy to validate your analogy on this thread, thereby debunking the 9/11 Truth movement. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/64 "2019-09-12T16:19:06Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, black holes seem to be [the go-to theory](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/03/cnn-wonders-if-flight-370-went-into-black-hole.html) for mysterious airplane disappearances… I prefer to think the black holes are time tunnels to repopulate the future. [Millennium (1989) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097883/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_91) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/65 "2019-09-12T16:46:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’ve never understood why this building fascinates the 9/11 Truther CT types, to be honest. There really aren’t any mysteries as to why the building collapsed. Basically, a ton of building material fell on it from the other WTC tower collapses (BURNING debris at that), and due to water main breaks and, kind of other priorities happening the building was left burning all day without fire fighters really doing much (read: anything). So you “claim” that having tons of “material” fall on a building that then “burns” all day is enough to make it collapse? Impossible. It was made out of steel and steel doesn’t burn. Rosie O’Donnell was able to prove that without “degrees”, “research” or even “intelligence”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/66 "2019-09-12T16:56:07Z")
Sigh. LAZombie, WRT your earlier bullet point question, this has all be addressed, ad nausium, in previous threads, which is why no one is seriously trying to engage you. If this were the 1st time they had all come up…or, frankly, the 10th time…someone probably would. But you are like the 100th (or more) Truther to ask these vital questions. No one is going to really bother answering something that has been this done to death. > [@LAZombie](#): > > I do not believe airplane with the amount of fuel they carry could destroy buildings in the manner we witnessed. All three buildings collapsed as if they were in a controlled demolition. The Twin Towers has a massive asbestos issue and the cost of abatement could have ruined the owner Larry Silverstein. Some have suggested Larry Silverstein conspired with government forces. Yeah, it sounds crazy but it would not be the first time a landlord engaged in murder and arson. > > I do not know what happened to the people in the planes, but I would suggest that entities that would create a “New Pearl Harbor” that resulted in two wars, hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths, and 4.5 trillions in costs are not above anything. Here is the thing. You clearly don’t understand a lot about even the basics of what happened on 9/11 (let alone things like structural engineering or materials science). That’s cool…no reason why you should or would, really, as it’s not what you do. But the folks who put together the really compelling ‘evidence’ videos you have obviously watched are basically using your ignorance to spin you a tale that SEEMS right but, if you actually knew much about this stuff really falls flat. Take what you say here as just an example (and this is off the top of my head and from memory, or nightmare of doing this same stupid dance for years on this board): > [@](#): > > I do not believe airplane with the amount of fuel they carry could destroy buildings in the manner we witnessed. All three buildings collapsed as if they were in a controlled demolition. The Twin Towers has a massive asbestos issue and the cost of abatement could have ruined the owner Larry Silverstein. Leaving aside your belief, and assuming you are talking about the tower buildings that were hit by air craft, the thing is, yes…they DID have all of their load bearing beams sheathed in an asbestos foam. That’s code, and they definitely had that. The key there is ‘had’, however. You need to take into account that they were hit, at high speed by large, fully loaded air craft flying at speed. This event essentially scoured those beams of most of their protection, leaving them exposed. And while they did that, they also dumped their fully loaded fuel tanks into the mix, starting a multi-floor fire on now unprotected steal beams that have also been weakened just by the impact. This is why, if you actually watch the videos done by engineering and architectural groups who are not ignorant or have an agenda, the collapse starts in exactly these areas. And it’s not ‘simultaneous’ when you slow it down. The collapse starts as a small shift in the impact areas where the fires were. When you slow it down, and if you are actually watching for it, you can see that part of the 1st tower to go slumps. But we are talking an incredible amount of weight here, so as soon as part of the main structure fails the rest fails too, since it’s ALSO weakened. So, it LOOKS like it’s ‘simultaneous’, but when you slow things down it really isn’t. And this is just one small piece of what happened and what you are being lied to or deliberately deceived over. We could…hell, we HAVE…gone over each and every one of your points, and lots you didn’t mention (gods…lots is such an understatement) in excruciating detail with previous Truther types who came in here with exactly the same message and equally convinced. And equally wrong. There really are just no mysteries about why each building collapsed. WTC 7 is really cut and dried and it’s laughable that folks think there is some mystery about it as it’s probably the most straight forward of the bunch, needing the least amount of critical thinking or even basic understanding. The other ones you kind of have to understand a bit about how the steel beams were stripped of protection, what the actual dynamic of a large, fully loaded air craft flying at high speed through a structure like the twin towers does on impact and moving forward, how the actual structure in the towers, especially the load bearing ones worked and how and why they would fail in the conditions that happened and a ton of other stuff. It IS a bit complicated. But WTC 7? Naw…that one is easy. Anyway, that’s why you aren’t getting a lot of engagement on your questions. If you are REALLY interested, I suggest doing Google searches on things like ‘debunking 9/11 Truth’. Popular Science did a really good series of articles on this (if you don’t want to trust the gubbermint) that are probably still out there somewhere, as well as a bunch of other groups. Or you could search for old threads on this board as the links to many, MANY of these articles and data have been linked in. ---
**Author:** ![namahoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/77aa72/32.png) [@namahoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/namahoo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/67 "2019-09-12T17:11:29Z")
Hello all again, I read through the replies so far, but could find nothing particularly enlightening re this new 2019 Univ of Alaska study. People seem set in their ways. Sorry for not including a link in the OP. Here’s a couple of them, to a short summary and to a longer presentation. Looking forward to your feedback. Cheers! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/68 "2019-09-12T17:17:30Z")
My aunt is a 9/11 Truther. She also believes a variety of other conspiracy theories. Her logic goes like this: If she can find even just one flaw in your argument, then your entire argument is bunk. But somehow, all of her flaws in \*her \*theories ought to go unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/69 "2019-09-12T17:19:55Z")
> [@namahoo](#): > > Hello all again, > > I read through the replies so far, but could find nothing particularly enlightening re this new 2019 Univ of Alaska study. People seem set in their ways. > > Sorry for not including a link in the OP. Here’s a couple of them, to a short summary and to a longer presentation. > > Looking forward to your feedback. Cheers! Speaking of people set in their ways, you have yet to tell us what _you_ think. Looking forward to _your_ feedback. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/70 "2019-09-12T17:25:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Speaking of people set in their ways, you have yet to tell us what _you_ think. > Looking forward to _your_ feedback. You forgot say _Cheers!_ ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/71 "2019-09-12T17:28:01Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Explain this: > > (3) WTC7 wasn’t hit by a plane. Why would normal office furnishings and material cause such a massive structural collapse? This is a fundamentally dishonest question. WTC1 and 2 _were_ hit by planes, and yet, you still think their collapses were suspicious. This question is intended to suggest an open-mindedness that Truthers don’t actually have. > [@](#): > > (6) How could there be molten steel under ruins three months after the collapse? And this is a good question for you, as well. How would an explosive controlled demolition produce this effect? Disregarding the fact that the claims of “molten steel” are all completely unfounded, if such evidence actually did exist, it is fatal to most of the truther hypotheses as well, because it calls into question all their “evidence” for controlled demolition and explosives. Assuming for a moment that you’re not a dyed-in-wool CTist, but are just honestly seeking answers, don’t you think that the people who created and promulgated a list containing such dishonest, misleading elements should be held to account, and be subject to your scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/72 "2019-09-12T18:03:53Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Their “expertise” seems to be that they saw a youtube video of the Vegas Riveria being demolished and compared it to buildings being destroyed in a Michael Bay movie. And the only demolition expert who the Movement could find to agree with them disagreed on 1 & 2 (not controlled demolitions due to the fire) and only said that 7 was a controlled demolition because he wasn’t told it _was_ 7 until after he said it was controlled. Stands to reason, with 1 & 2 not being controlled demolitions due to fire, then neither could have 7. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/73 "2019-09-12T18:13:03Z")
> [@namahoo](#): > > I read through the replies so far, but could find nothing particularly enlightening re this new 2019 Univ of Alaska study. It’s exactly as valuable as the 2017 study by the same researcher - not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/74 "2019-09-12T18:18:38Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > The Twin Towers has a massive asbestos issue and the cost of abatement could have ruined the owner Larry Silverstein. Some have suggested Larry Silverstein conspired with government forces. Yeah, it sounds crazy but it would not be the first time a landlord engaged in murder and arson. > [@](#): > > Robert Szantner, a principle of Minoru Yamasaki Associates, the architectural firm that designed the World Trade Center, said asbestos was used in the construction. > > “But the Port Authority, once they discovered that asbestos was a problem, put together a remediation program, that through the course of many years was eliminating most of the asbestos in the building,” he told UPI. “However, there may be some minor areas that hadn’t yet been completely upgraded to new fireproofing on the structural steel. So that should be the only remaining asbestos in the building. In proportion it should be fairly nominal.” > > Szantner said most of the dust seen in the air is gypsum board and pulverized concrete. [Cite](https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/09/12/World-Trade-Center-asbestos-threat-unclear/3641000267200/). That doesn’t sound like such a massive problem to me - probably not massive enough to engineer a conspiracy to crash two airliners and murder thousands. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/75 "2019-09-12T18:41:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But WTC 7? Naw…that one is easy. It is so easy but you still cannot explain it. I refer you to the video above from the University of Alaska that states fire as well as debris and heat from WTC 1 and 2 did not cause the WTC 7 to collapse. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/76 "2019-09-12T18:43:29Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > For 18 years I believed the official government narrative and believed that Truthers were deranged individuals, then I decided to take the time to hear Truther arguments. They have some very disturbing points to make that resonate with me. Some things they say may be wrong or exaggerated or twisted to support their overall beliefs, but I have seen enough to say the official narrative is not correct. I joined this discussion to get a rebuttal to what I have recently learned. It is quite shameful that people feel the need to mock me when I just want a civil discussion. > > I do not believe airplane with the amount of fuel they carry could destroy buildings in the manner we witnessed. All three buildings collapsed as if they were in a controlled demolition. The Twin Towers has a massive asbestos issue and the cost of abatement could have ruined the owner Larry Silverstein. Some have suggested Larry Silverstein conspired with government forces. Yeah, it sounds crazy but it would not be the first time a landlord engaged in murder and arson. > > I do not know what happened to the people in the planes, but I would suggest that entities that would create a “New Pearl Harbor” that resulted in two wars, hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths, and 4.5 trillions in costs are not above anything. So you watched some Truther videos that “resonated” with you. Did you then check out the sources debunking those claims? [Here’s a good one](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a49/1227842/). Read it and then get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/77 "2019-09-12T19:08:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/09/12/World-Trade-Center-asbestos-threat-unclear/3641000267200/). > > That doesn’t sound like such a massive problem to me - probably not massive enough to engineer a conspiracy to crash two airliners and murder thousands. YMMV. > > Regards, > Shodan Indeed, we know that asbestos abatement at the WTC _would_ cost a lot of money, because they’d [already done the bulk of the work](https://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20010513/ISSUE01/10004154/port-loses-claim-for-asbestos-removal): > [@](#): > > The ruling ends the trial phase of a decade-long court battle that began when the Port Authority sued its property insurers in 1991 in a New Jersey state court. > > The suit sought recovery of the Port Authority’s huge expenses of removing asbestos from hundreds of properties ranging from the enormous World Trade Center complex-which represented more than $200 million of the abatement costs-to bridge and tunnel toll booths. The Asbestos Hypothesis would have us believe they destroyed the buildings to avoid paying for work they’d already paid for. That’s generally not how insurance scams work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/78 "2019-09-12T19:16:34Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > I do not believe airplane with the amount of fuel they carry could destroy buildings in the manner we witnessed. The planes were scheduled to fly cross-country, and had about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel aboard. How much do you think it would take, and what is the basis for your belief? > [@](#): > > All three buildings collapsed as if they were in a controlled demolition. No, actually they didn’t. Typically in a demolition, the windows blow out, which wasn’t observed to happen. I was working for a company whose office was hit by the second plane, and none of them noticed anyone scurrying around planting explosives beforehand. I assume you know that buildings of that size fall down rather than sideways. And again, how did they know which floors the airplanes were going to hit so they could plant the explosives only there? That’s some pretty fancy flying from amateurs who don’t even know how to land. Also interested in hearing your response to the asbestos thing, if possible. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/79 "2019-09-12T19:56:34Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > I refer you to the video above from the University of Alaska that states fire as well as debris and heat from WTC 1 and 2 did not cause the WTC 7 to collapse. And we don’t accept the report as believable because of the funding, the lack of expertise by the authors, and their previously demonstrated bias. If accepted experts confirm their results than you’ll have something. But right now all you have is an unreliable report that contradicts a reliable one. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064/80 "2019-09-12T20:07:02Z")
I don’t get why CTers have to make everything so needless complex. Why not just say “[Insert nefarious group here] paid terrorists to fly planes into buildings.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtc7-collapse-new-numerical-results/840064.md?page=5)