# WTF, 5 NFL London games next year! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 26, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581 "2014-10-26T16:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/21 "2014-10-27T15:36:10Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > These are elite athletes who have the best possible training regimens, nutrition, support staff, etc. This is because we like to see a sport competed at the very highest possible level we could see. Sure, we could throw adversity at them by depriving them of sleep or tying 10 pound weights to their ankles, and I’m sure they’d manage to go on anyway, and yet the product would be diminished. I see a huge difference between having your normal routine thrown off for a week, and having 10 pound weight around their ankles. Part of being an “elite athlete” is being good even when you’re nicked up, on the road, getting over the stomach flu, having personal problems at home, distractions, or any of the dozens of other things that can hinder play. > [@Senor Beef](#): > > And for what? A publicity stunt that doesn’t benefit the fans or the quality of play in the league? Something with the ultimate goal of making the league significantly worse, which is what would happen if we had a London team like they wanted. Again, I’m not convinced that “the quality of play” is that hampered by time changes. One of the best, most exciting games this weekend was the Lions/Atlanta game in London, while the Jags/Dolphins; Vikings/Bucs; and even the Seahawks/Panthers were poorly played, boring games. > [@Senor Beef](#): > > “oh my bio-rhythms are off” is a significant competitive factor in football. You dismiss it, but do you deny the empirical evidence of the divergent loss rates from west coat teams travelling across the country and playing early? And that’s a much less dramatic trip. Now you’re talking about the benefits a permanent London team would have over visiting teams, not two NFL teams both travelling to play. That, I think, would be a very, real concern. If the advantage a London team has over the visitors is much more significant than that of a regular home team, that would be a concern. Every home team has such an advantage, and I’m not convinced that it would be all that greater in London than elsewhere. It might be, but I don’t think we can conclude it will. And, in the eyes of competitive balance, any benefit from a home game for the London team would likely be a detriment for their away games too. Just like in the NFL now. > [@Senor Beef](#): > > Again, artificially adding to their adversity just lowers the quality of the product. Sometimes it’s unavoidable, but in this case it’s quite the opposite. Expanding the NFL to Europe doesn’t benefit American fans, or the players. You could make a case that it benefits European fans, what few they are, but mostly it benefits the owners. I’d rather not lower the quality of the sport so that billionaires can gain a few more percent net worth. You mean NFL owners are just like every other business owner in the entire world? They want to expand their business, attract new customers, and make more money, even if it means inconvenience for their employees just like almost every other business in the world. Go figure. Again, I don’t think there’s evidence that the quality of play decreases by being played in London to any significant level that is different from being played outdoors, being played at night, being played with the other team coming off a bye, or any of the other myriad of things that can influence the quality of play. I get that the benefit to American fans may be minimal to some (Personally, I loved the Sunday morning game. It gave me a chance to watch NFL football before real life took it away), but I also think expanding the brand isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I don’t care if I knew about my favorite band before they got cool. ---
**Author:** ![Heropsychodreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Heropsychodreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heropsychodreamer)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/22 "2014-10-27T18:11:00Z")
I thought the 9:30 EST London game was terrific. I had a rare Sunday with nothing on my schedule and was able to watch football from 9:30 to about 11:30 at night if I wanted to. I didn’t quite watch that much, but it was pretty cool watch football from bed Sunday monring. There is nothing much on TV on a Sunday so I say have 16 Sunday morning games, one each week. Don’t have one in week 17 so you protect a playoff team having to play in London on Sunday and then a playoff game the following Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/23 "2014-10-27T21:53:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I hate all the gimmick games…playing overseas, throwback jerseys, etc. Completely unnecessary and add no value to the game. I like both a lot. I’d have no problem with 8 or even 16 London games a year, with every team there on a rotation basis. And/or the “game in London is the price to host a superbowl” idea. I think they should do more baseball in Australia/Japan/Korea/Taiwan. I also like throwback/alternate unis (in principle; some suck) and wish the NFL would allow throwback/alternate helmets. Just sayin … Different strokes. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/24 "2014-10-27T21:59:36Z")
Purely practial questions: 1. What kind of attendance do NFL games get in England? 2. How many of the fans attending the games are actually English (as opposed to Yanks living over there)? 3. Have any English corporations shown any interest in sponsoring these games, or in buying boxes? It’s obvious the NFL would LIKE to go international, but I don’t see much in the way of success. It doesn’t LOOK as if American football is catching on in the least- certainly not the way basketball has. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/25 "2014-10-27T23:57:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Purely practial questions: > > 1. What kind of attendance do NFL games get in England? > > 2. How many of the fans attending the games are actually English (as opposed to Yanks living over there)? > > 3. Have any English corporations shown any interest in sponsoring these games, or in buying boxes? > It’s obvious the NFL would LIKE to go international, but I don’t see much in the way of success. It doesn’t LOOK as if American football is catching on in the least- certainly not the way basketball has. All three London games this year sold out months in advance. I read something like 97% of the tickets were bought by people living in England (and really, I don’t think the NFL cares what actual citizenship the people have as long as they buy tickets). ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/26 "2014-10-28T00:22:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > How dare they try to expand their business. Bastards! > > I really enjoyed the Sunday a.m. game (outside of the poor play by the teams). I get to watch a bit of football before I have to get on with my life in the real world, which all too often means I don’t get to watch football. It’s shitty for the teams that have to play it. The travel makes it difficult for the players. Thursday games suck for the teams too. Coaches hate them also. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/27 "2014-10-28T13:11:35Z")
> [@](#): > > What kind of attendance do NFL games get in England? They’ve [all sold out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_International_Series#Game_history) except [Bears-Bucs in 2011](http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311023027), which the NFL [announced](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/21/bears-bucs-is-sold-out-technically/) as a sellout “for TV purposes”, whatever that means (presumably the blackout rule doesn’t apply.) The attendance record at Wembley for all events is 89k and change; not sure if there is less seating capacity when it’s set up for American football. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/28 "2014-10-28T15:11:12Z")
I have an idea. The NFL has every team play on Thursday once per season, right? Many people have said they should schedule Thursday games after teams’ bye week, so let’s just combine that idea with these incessant London games and put all Thursday games in London\* following bye weeks. Heck, you could add such a game on as a 17th regular season game, thus expanding the season and not taking away home games for the International Series. \*: or wherever they put international games. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/29 "2014-10-28T15:33:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The NFL has every team play on Thursday once per season, right? [Not quite](http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2014/TNF). The Chargers and Redskins have two Thursday games and the Seahawks and Lions don’t have any. I hadn’t realized it until now, but other than the Chargers’ second game and Cowboys/Bears they are all division games. > [@](#): > > …let’s just combine that idea with these incessant London games and put all Thursday games in London\* following bye weeks. Anyway, if you put the Thursday games in London they can’t be in US prime time - unless you want the UK fans to be there from ~1 am to 4 am. Even if they kicked off at 5 pm US time it would be a 10 pm kickoff locally. Of course, given how bad the Thursday games have been I guess it would be okay if they were on when nobody was watching. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/30 "2014-10-28T15:40:21Z")
For a while it looked as if the NFL was considering expanding to Mexico City. Up until the recent opening of the new Dallas stadium Mexico City had the distinction of the largest crowd to ever watch an NFL game. I don’t know why they abandoned the idea… it seems like it would make much more sense than London does. No travel issues in terms of fatigue, etc. New markets opening up. No time zone problems. It’s high altitude so it might be tiring to play there… but of course Denver seems to do fine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/31 "2014-10-28T15:55:26Z")
I think the NFL’s focus on the UK is a product of the fact that there is potential for homegrown talent. The best way to sell the game is to get people to play the game, and the best way to do that is to showcase other British people doing it. Mexico doesn’t seem to have a lot of the sort of large people that are needed to play NFL football. The UK does; they’re just all playing rugby - and to a lesser extent, soccer - right now. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/32 "2014-10-28T16:21:19Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Again, I’m not convinced that “the quality of play” is that hampered by time changes. This has been studied. This news [article](http://www.npr.org/2012/09/12/160929344/nfls-west-coast-teams-have-an-edge-the-sandman) and this [paper](http://www.npr.org/2012/09/12/160929344/nfls-west-coast-teams-have-an-edge-the-sandman) both show time changes have definite effects on the outcomes of games. I don’t care how much they’re paid. I care about my experience. And the NFL is playing with the quality of that experience. > [@johnspartan](#): > > For a while it looked as if the NFL was considering expanding to Mexico City. > > … > > I don’t know why they abandoned the idea… it seems like it would make much more sense than London does. Just a guess, but I think the lack of other expansion opportunities has something to do with this. Unlike London, there aren’t that many other major cities in the vicinity from which to make money. Goodell was also a director of international development, i.e. NFL Europe, in the 90s and is well known to have a soft spot for another attempt at expanding the league in Europe. I would guess that if he weren’t around, the push for a London franchise would lose considerable steam. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/33 "2014-10-28T16:53:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [Not quite](http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2014/TNF). The Chargers and Redskins have two Thursday games and the Seahawks and Lions don’t have any. I hadn’t realized it until now, but other than the Chargers’ second game and Cowboys/Bears they are all division games. That page doesn’t include the [Thanksgiving day games](http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2014/REG13): Chicago Bears at Detroit Lions Philadelphia Eagles at Dallas Cowboys Seattle Seahawks at San Francisco 49ers ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/34 "2014-10-28T16:59:33Z")
Ah. Thought there was something odd about the Lions not being on there. **Antibob** , that paper doesn’t explain why London games are bad when both teams are traveling _East_. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/35 "2014-10-28T17:24:24Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I care about my experience. And the NFL is playing with the quality of that experience. Let me ask. Did you notice this difference in the “quality of play” in the 40 years before those sleep papers were published? Were you watching the Chargers v. Philly game in 2013 and saying to yourself “Hey, you know what? The quality of play in this game is diminished. I wonder why that is? Maybe the Chargers circadian rhythms is a bit off?” Or, as I would suspect an overwhelming majority of NFL fans would say “well, that was a heck of a football game”. How was it that the “diminished quality of play” never got noticed until it was compared against the spread by a sleep expert? Where has been and where is the outrage against this “diminished quality of play” for the East v. West Coast teams for the last 40 years? And, what RNATB said. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/36 "2014-10-28T17:33:07Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > That page doesn’t include the [Thanksgiving day games](http://www.nfl.com/schedules/2014/REG13): > > Chicago Bears at Detroit Lions > Philadelphia Eagles at Dallas Cowboys > Seattle Seahawks at San Francisco 49ers The Seahawks also opened the season on a Thursday night. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/37 "2014-10-28T17:38:56Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > The Seahawks also opened the season on a Thursday night. Nope. That game never happened. I think it’s a figment of your imagination. -Hamlet, Packer fan. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/38 "2014-10-28T17:44:16Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Nope. That game never happened. I think it’s a figment of your imagination. > > -Hamlet, Packer fan. This past Sunday night too when World Series Game 5 was the only sporting event on the calendar. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/39 "2014-10-28T18:01:54Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > This past Sunday night too when World Series Game 5 was the only sporting event on the calendar. Precisely. And the decade from about 1983 to 1993. No games in those years either. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581/40 "2014-10-28T18:19:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Antibob** , that paper doesn’t explain why London games are bad when both teams are traveling _East_. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Let me ask. Did you notice this difference in the “quality of play” in the 40 years before those sleep papers were published? I wasn’t alive for 40 years before the first paper was published, but yes, I have wondered about the effect of time zone differences on the level of play throughout my lifetime. Looking at any individual game is an anecdote. The data, on the other hand, shows that changing time zones can and does have an impact on play. Does that mean individual games can’t be great? Certainly not. Just as it doesn’t mean particular women can’t be taller than most men or that an obese man can’t live to 110 years old. But it certainly does mean that, on average, the quality of play is affected by changes in time zone. As for “outrage” over west coast vs east coast teams, I don’t know if it rises to that level, but certainly the amount of travel west coast teams have to do and the number of time zones they cross and the potential effect on their play is mentioned with some regularity in sports media and reportedly something coaches and players are concerned with. And that’s within the same country, though having several division games closer to home probably helps. Fans don’t necessarily complain as much, but we are all in the same country, so complaints are more likely to sound like whining. For example, here’s an [article](http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/25/oakland-raiders-london-nfl/) about Oakland playing in London with some mention of their similar East Coast problems. And an [article](http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/07/28/oakland-raiders-travel-east-coast-trips) from before the season started on how they are adjusting their schedule to compensate for their atrocious record on the Eastern seaboard. And another [article](http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/19/ap-fbn-pacific-patsies) on west coast teams in general over the last decade. And [another](http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/38404/west-coast-teams-uphill-fight-with-nfl). And [another](https://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/nfl-west-coast-teams-traveling-east/) (dealing potentially with real money as the analysis is against the spread instead of straight win/loss). Again, anecdotes vs data. Individual games in London can be good or bad. But the average level of play is likely lower than it would be had those games been played here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-5-nfl-london-games-next-year/702581.md?page=3)