# WTF?!?! A Plane Crash in Harlem?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 12, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913 "2001-11-12T14:29:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/121 "2001-11-12T20:25:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*In the interests of accuracy, a much more likely scenerio for a terrorist attack would be two people on the flight paths out of JFK armed with an [SA-7 “Grail”](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm)(or similar, the U.S. version is the REDEYE) man portable anti-aircraft weapon. \*\* [nitpick] The Redeye was replaced with the [Stinger](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm) in the early 80’s, and the [SA-16 “Gimlet”](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-16.htm) is it’s Soviet Block copy.[/nitpick] Other than that, I fully agree with **Weirddave** on this. It has been feared for many years that a scenario like this would play out, and the US Army has lost Stingers here in the US, and there were over 100 left in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out in the 80’s. Soviet versions are available on the black market. This in no way suggests that this occurred this morning, but it has been a scenario studied for many years with not a whole hell of a lot we could do about it until afterwards. The good part is these missiles leave one heck of a smoke trail that can be seen for some time, so it is HIGHLY unlikely this occurred. UncleBill Former 7204 Air Defense Officer USMC ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/122 "2001-11-12T20:32:23Z")
It’s time to racial profile. If an Arab got on a plane going to a Spanish speaking country with a fake Spanish passport and maybe even speaking Spanish, would anyone even notice him? Even leaving from New York City today? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/123 "2001-11-12T20:59:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > > \*\*In the interests of accuracy, a much more likely scenerio for a terrorist attack would be two people on the flight paths out of JFK armed with an [SA-7 “Grail”](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm)(or similar, the U.S. version is the REDEYE) man portable anti-aircraft weapon. \*\* > > [nitpick] The Redeye was replaced with the [Stinger](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm) in the early 80’s, and the [SA-16 “Gimlet”](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-16.htm) is it’s Soviet Block copy.[/nitpick] > > Other than that, I fully agree with **Weirddave** on this. It has been feared for many years that a scenario like this would play out, and the US Army has lost Stingers here in the US, and there were over 100 left in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out in the 80’s. Soviet versions are available on the black market. > > This in no way suggests that this occurred this morning, but it has been a scenario studied for many years with not a whole hell of a lot we could do about it until afterwards. The good part is these missiles leave one heck of a smoke trail that can be seen for some time, so it is HIGHLY unlikely this occurred. > > UncleBill > Former 7204 Air Defense Officer > USMC \*\* Thanks, Bill, always nice for us armchair civilian students of the military to be backed up by experts. FWIW I mentioned the older models on the theory that they are more common, and if I’m a terrorist leader with both in my inventory, and the older model is more than adiquate for the attack I want to make, I would use it rather than the newer ones, which I would keep at home as having a better chance to hit when used against U.S. warplanes as opposed to civilian airliners. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/124 "2001-11-12T21:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Annie-Xmas \* > \*\*It’s time to racial profile. If an Arab got on a plane going to a Spanish speaking country with a fake Spanish passport and maybe even speaking Spanish, would anyone even notice him? Even leaving from New York City today? \*\* Unless I’ve missed something, at this point, there hasn’t been a determination that this crash has anything to do with terrorists, let alone which terrorists, so this suggestion is, well, at least premature, I’d think. Although **anyone** with a fake passport should be stopped, and should have been stopped even prior to 9-11. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/125 "2001-11-12T21:15:42Z")
What **wring** said. This is a time to reach out to one another and to guard our freedoms, not throw them away. If and when any hard evidence is found to suggest that this tragedy has anything to do with terrorists, then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/126 "2001-11-12T21:20:06Z")
Good point, **Dave.** I would absolutely hate to see that very thing over our skies (military aircraft taken out with more sophisticated hardware). ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/127 "2001-11-12T22:04:13Z")
Non-US Doper checking in. As I write this, it’s the main story on Australia’s [Channel Nine Network news site](http://news.ninemsn.com/), and on the [ABC site](http://www.abc.gov.au/news/). I heard about it in an email from my friend in England, who was announcing that she had just finalised her plans to travel back to Australia by plane in December, despite hearing about the latest air tragedy in NYC. Her stopover is going to be in Dubai. My heart goes out to the families of those lost to this latest tragedy. How much can New York stand? Let’s pray that this is the end of their streak of sorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/128 "2001-11-12T22:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cazzle \* > \*\*How much can New York stand? \*\* I am not a New Yorker, but I guarantee that NYC can stand anything thrown at it, be it attack or accident. And so can the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/129 "2001-11-12T22:53:28Z")
A guy who writes for me lost his sister in the crash. ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/130 "2001-11-13T00:16:09Z")
Thanks **Weirddave** and **UncleBill** for your reply. Since this probably isn’t the thread to discuss this, I re-submitted it in General Questions. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/131 "2001-11-13T00:24:39Z")
After a minor accident I had to take a day off at work today. Suddenly my sister calls saying that a plane bound for Santo Domingo had crashed in New York. I though “this can’t be happening”. I tuned the local news and yes, it had happened. A report from the AILA Airport (Santo Domingo) showed the shock in people’s faces when finding out that their relatives, spouses and friends that they went to pick up at the airport would never arrive. It broke my heart, that’s when it hurts the most when you hear the stories of these people, when you actually see them crying. And like most of you I thought “pls. God, let this be _just_ an accident”. How sick a world when one finds comfort in knowning that more than 255 people died in just an accident. Our president has just declared 3 days of mourning, that makes 9 days in just 2 months for us. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/132 "2001-11-13T00:35:07Z")
Do we know why takeoff was delayed for 35 minutes? Had the Airbus left on time this probably would have happened somwhere near Bermuda. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by belladonna \* > > \*\*Just out of curiosity–is this making the news overseas? If so, what’s the spin on it over there? > > > > Non-US dopers–any info? \*\* > > German media has commented that there’s a UN conference today, but has stressed that not much is known, yet. \*\* How’s this for a coincidence? CNN reported this morning that the subject of one UN conference concerned what to do with the Afghani government once the Taliban is removed from power. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/133 "2001-11-13T00:36:06Z")
I read about the crash this morning in the paper with horror. My thoughts are with those people who lost family and friends in the crash. To you folks in NYC: you didn’t deserve this. Be strong in the face of adversity. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/134 "2001-11-13T00:43:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > Those Airbuses were crashing at **1 per year for the last 10 years!?** WTF? Does this not throw up red flags with the FAA? Even if it were so, if the primary cause 9/10 times turned out to be unrelated to a fundamental design flaw – i.e. weather, or honest error, or negligence, or bad operating procedures, or a combination (\* “Heck, I’ve landed in worse weather than this, and besides management has been on our case over delays. Gun the engines.”\*) it does not throw up general red flags. Anecdotal: About 3 or 4 years back, an A300 leaving San Juan for Miami had the port engine catch on fire about 15 minutes out. Many of us got to pull over on the highway and just stare at this big honkin’ Airbus coming on approach to SJU – which means overflying the heart of the Business District and several large housing projects – trailing a flame as long as itself and a few miles of smoke. Made it back safely. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/135 "2001-11-13T00:57:36Z")
**Mighty\_Girl** , receive our solidarity from across the Mona Passage. You are all right, it’s a sick, sad world (apologies to Daria) where we need to find comfort in that it was just “normal” death… Shortly after 9/11 I wrote on Usenet’s afc-a the following: > [@](#): > > (…)the usual and customary Bad Things and Violent Deaths that up to 9/11 were worth maybe 2 days of national frontpage coverage and a week on updates in the local news, are going to continue to happen. > For the rest of our lifetimes, every so often a train will derail. A child will go missing. A policeman will mistakenly shoot an innocent man. An airplane will go down. A guy from the Heartland who was “a quiet fellow and Sunday-school teacher who never got into trouble” will be discovered to be doing something really, really sick involving missing hitch-hikers and a Veg-O-Matic. There will be a hazardous-chemical spill. A disgruntled employee will gun down everyone at the local diner. People will OD on contaminated heroin. Teenagers will off themselves and leave a note blaming Marylyn Manson. A family-member’s car will be broken into. A friend’s neighbor will get mugged or raped. > All of it horrible…(but) We do not need to get hysterical about it, but to take the necessary corrective measures in a rational and timely fashion. Only that the universe would decide to prove me wrong on this one… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/136 "2001-11-13T06:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > **Do we know why takeoff was delayed for 35 minutes? Had the Airbus left on time this probably would have happened somwhere near Bermuda.** Not sure what you mean. Wouldn’t the malfunction have happened on takeoff no matter when the takeoff time was? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl_ > **How sick a world when one finds comfort in knowing that more than 255 people died in just an accident.** Don’t berate yourself. You’re not taking comfort from the knowledge that this was an accident; you’re merely consoling yourself with the hope that this is not the continuation of a pattern. **I** hope it’s not, anyway. As for the Hello Kitty bedsheets, I find it touching that people were willing to contribute something of theirs. Not that I’d know the difference, but I wouldn’t mind Hello Kitty as opposed to an anonymous body bag. [tangent]I’m thinking of an early episode of **Roseanne** where a salesman talked his way into the house and abruptly collapsed in the kitchen. Naturally, he had no ID, and the town coroner was on the golf course without a pager. (IRL, someone would call the clubhouse and have him dragged off the greens!) Anyway, hours later, the coroner finally showed up, pronounced him, and “John Doe” was taken away. Becky (oldest daughter) said, "He shouldn’t have lived his whole life just to be buried as John Doe…William. Definitely a William.[/tangent] ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/137 "2001-11-14T17:14:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > > **Do we know why takeoff was delayed for 35 minutes? Had the Airbus left on time this probably would have happened somwhere near Bermuda.** > > Not sure what you mean. Wouldn’t the malfunction have happened on takeoff no matter when the takeoff time was? > \*\* Yeah, but over the ocean instead of on top of people’s homes. BTW: anyone else see the footage of the tail being pulled from the Atlantic? ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/138 "2001-11-14T20:53:04Z")
FTR, the tail was pulled from Jamaica Bay not the Atlantic. [/quote] The NTSB seems to be concentrating on the JAL 747 that was ahead of flight 587. Although AA587 started out more than the required two minutes behind the 747, at some point the difference was down to about 90 seconds. They are looking at the possibility that the “wake effect” from the 747 contributed to the crash. If they can retrieve the information from the damaged flight data recorder, that should answer a lot of questions. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913/139 "2001-11-15T21:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > \*\*FTR, the tail was pulled from Jamaica Bay not the Atlantic. > \*\* Sorry, I have no maps around here and couldn’t find anything helpful with Google or Mapquest. At least I knew it wasn’t Long Island Sound! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-a-plane-crash-in-harlem/92913.md?page=6)