# WTF Baltimore? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 27, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677 "2015-04-27T22:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/261 "2015-04-30T20:21:34Z")
Boy if you can’t trust a witness whose view was blocked, who can you trust? So the only way his head could bang against the bolt was if he did it himself. Oh yes, that will surely settle all the questions. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/262 "2015-04-30T20:30:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Hey, if you’re going to be a looter, be a white looter with lots of well-armed buddies, like Cliven Bundy. I’m much more interested in seeing Bundy brought to justice than the Baltimore rioters. How strange that you omit Jack the Ripper from your dragnet. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/263 "2015-04-30T21:07:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Boy if you can’t trust a witness whose view was blocked, who can you trust? An anonymous witness as quoted by a report leaked by an anonymous cop, no less. Sounds \*hella \*legit. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/264 "2015-05-01T03:22:53Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > From your link: > “We know a man named Freddie Gray is dead but we don’t know what happened in that paddywagon,” Brown said, referring to the police van used to transport Gray and another man. > > Is that a commonly used term for a police car in the States? A [“paddywagon”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_van) is of a van used for prisoner transport rather than a car. Yes, it is an American term common in some regions of the country. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/265 "2015-05-01T04:33:51Z")
Thus far, I do not believe the account that has another prisoner in the paddy wagon hearing Freddie Gray intentionally injuring himself. But I will withhold final judgment. Maybe corroborating info will come out. I’m not sure how the witness who couldn’t see Gray could be sure it wasn’t a seizure or something, but we’ll see. At the same time as this story turns up from an anonymous witness, though, we learn that the van made another stop that night between picking Gray up and getting to the police station. One that was caught on a security camera, but the police hadn’t mentioned before. I think the cops’ collective credibility is really suspect on the whole narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/266 "2015-05-01T05:03:17Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Thus far, I do not believe the account that has another prisoner in the paddy wagon hearing Freddie Gray intentionally injuring himself. But I will withhold final judgment. Maybe corroborating info will come out. I’m not sure how the witness who couldn’t see Gray could be sure it wasn’t a seizure or something, but we’ll see. > > At the same time as this story turns up from an anonymous witness, though, we learn that the van made another stop that night between picking Gray up and getting to the police station. One that was caught on a security camera, but the police hadn’t mentioned before. I think the cops’ collective credibility is really suspect on the whole narrative. That second prisoner, the so-called “anonymous” one, actually _came forward_, to clear his name. He was interviewed on some NBC station today. He was, um, animated. 😉 He denied the Washington Post story. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/267 "2015-05-01T07:20:29Z")
> [@bup](#): > > At the same time as this story turns up from an anonymous witness, though, we learn that the van made another stop that night between picking Gray up and getting to the police station. One that was caught on a security camera, but the police hadn’t mentioned before. I think the cops’ collective credibility is really suspect on the whole narrative. We already knew that the van made _two_ stops after picking Gray up. People were jumping to conclusions about what caused the longer trip, as if peak-hour traffic is some kind of evil conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/268 "2015-05-01T12:20:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > We already knew that the van made _two_ stops after picking Gray up. People were jumping to conclusions about what caused the longer trip, as if peak-hour traffic is some kind of evil conspiracy. How far is the police station from the location that Freddie Gray is placed in the van? Is it possible to injure a person that is handcuffed and shackled in the back of a van when they have no way of protecting themselves from the force of an emergency braking maneuver? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/269 "2015-05-01T13:14:16Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Is it possible to injure a person that is handcuffed and shackled in the back of a van when they have no way of protecting themselves from the force of an emergency braking maneuver? Of course it is. That’s the whole point of the “rough ride”. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/270 "2015-05-01T13:56:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … > The people who recently burned Baltimore ARE thugs. It’s a generic term. > > _Thug - > noun > › a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal: > Some thugs smashed his windows._ … Ok, but this means you also consider the Boston Tea Party participants to be thugs, correct? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/271 "2015-05-01T14:01:20Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Ok, but this means you also consider the Boston Tea Party participants to be thugs, correct? The Boston Tea Party participants were very polite thugs. They harmed no one, swept the decks clean afterwards, and personally replaced the one lock that they broke. Just like the thugs in Baltimore. :rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/272 "2015-05-01T14:12:11Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > That second prisoner, the so-called “anonymous” one, actually _came forward_, to clear his name. He was interviewed on some NBC station today. He was, um, animated. 😉 He denied the Washington Post story. This is why they convene Grand Juries to sift through, hopefully, all of the evidence related to an alleged crime. \*A man identifying himself as a key witness to Freddie Gray’s death in custody has come forward to reject previous reports suggesting he told investigators the 25-year-old caused his own fatal injuries inside a police van. Donta Allen, interviewed by two TV channels on Thursday, said he was the second prisoner authorities had said was inside the vehicle with Gray on 12 April. According to a police timeline, the second prisoner was placed in the vehicle around 20 minutes after Gray was arrested at 1700 Presbury Street, in west Baltimore. …In another interview with WBAL TV, Allan said that when he was placed in the van he didn’t hear anything and described the journey to the Western District police station as a smooth ride. “All I heard was a little banging for about four seconds,” Allen said.\* > **[Freddie Gray protests: second prisoner in Baltimore police van comes forward](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/01/freddie-gray-protests-prisoner-police-van-donta-allen-baltimore)** > > City braces for more demonstrations as Donta Allen dismisses reports he told police Freddie Gray caused his own injuries ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/273 "2015-05-01T14:17:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The Boston Tea Party participants were very polite thugs. They harmed no one, swept the decks clean afterwards, and personally replaced the one lock that they broke. > > Just like the thugs in Baltimore. :rolleyes::rolleyes: Exactly, glad we’re on the same page. > [@](#): > > People around Baltimore formed volunteer clean-up crews on Tuesday to help affected store owners, repair damaged structures, and clean streets strewn with debris. > **[The Day After: Cleaning Up in Baltimore](https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-day-after-cleaning-up-in-baltimore/391685/)** > > On Tuesday, Baltimore residents began to clear the wreckage of rioting and fires that erupted the day before, after the funeral of a 25-year-old black man who died in police custody. People around Baltimore formed volunteer clean-up crews on Tuesday... ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/274 "2015-05-01T14:18:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > We already knew that the van made _two_ stops after picking Gray up. People were jumping to conclusions about what caused the longer trip, as if peak-hour traffic is some kind of evil conspiracy. I thought I heard there were three stops, not two. Cameras revealed a previously unreported stop. Unreported by the officers that night. At least that’s my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/275 "2015-05-01T14:28:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > > [@EasyPhil](#): > > > > Is it possible to injure a person that is handcuffed and shackled in the back of a van when they have no way of protecting themselves from the force of an emergency braking maneuver? > > Of course it is. That’s the whole point of the “rough ride”. What “rough ride” did you think you were talking about? > [@](#): > > Allan said that when he was placed in the van he didn’t hear anything and described the journey to the Western District police station as a smooth ride. “All I heard was a little banging for about four seconds,” Allen said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/276 "2015-05-01T14:30:51Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Exactly, glad we’re on the same page. > > [The Day After: Cleaning Up in Baltimore - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-day-after-cleaning-up-in-baltimore/391685/) I don’t see any indication from your cite that the rioters and looters were involved in the clean-up. The peaceful protesters, sure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/277 "2015-05-01T14:30:57Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Exactly, glad we’re on the same page. > > People around Baltimore formed volunteer clean-up crews on Tuesday to help affected store owners, repair damaged structures, and clean streets strewn with debris. > > [The Day After: Cleaning Up in Baltimore - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-day-after-cleaning-up-in-baltimore/391685/) Except the people who cleaned up their Baltimore neighborhood were NOT the thugs who had looted, and burned the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/278 "2015-05-01T14:31:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What “rough ride” did you think you were talking about? > > Regards, > Shodan Obviously, if a rough ride happened, it did so prior to Allan being put in the van, or do you think that Gray’s neck just snapped for no reason? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/279 "2015-05-01T14:34:57Z")
Larry Wilmore had an interesting interview with the Baltimore Crips and Bloods who have made a truce/treaty for the duration of the unrest (they made it sound like a forever thing, but that seems unlikely). I wasn’t paying a lot of attention, but one interesting bit was where either the gang guys were bringing food to the police, or vice-versa. Kind of blowing up some of the rhetoric on both sides. And very much blowing up the Fox news reports of the gangs declaring a truce so they could join forces to kill the police. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/280 "2015-05-01T14:40:01Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I thought I heard there were three stops, not two. Cameras revealed a previously unreported stop. Unreported by the officers that night. At least that’s my understanding. Unreported to the media, or unreported to the police spokesperson, or unreported to the police department? This is why they convene grand juries. To find out what the facts are. It takes time to gather evidence, and interview witnesses. The LSM has a well established history of reporting any, and every, rumor they can. It seems they would rather be known as the first to publish a story than be known as the media outlet that is the most accurate. They can always run a correction later, after the neighborhood has been looted and burned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677.md?page=15)