# WTF Baltimore? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 27, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677 "2015-04-27T22:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/281 "2015-05-01T14:48:28Z")
Gray’s death is being ruled a homicide. Watching the press conference now. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/282 "2015-05-01T14:54:00Z")
Wow, there are a lot of charges. I’m amazed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/283 "2015-05-01T15:10:54Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Obviously, if a rough ride happened, it did so prior to Allan being put in the van, or do you think that Gray’s neck just snapped for no reason? I do not know how his spine got injured. If it was injured in a rough ride before Allan was put into the van, it apparently changed the instant they put another prisoner in. I don’t know why they would be rough with one prisoner but smooth with two. I also don’t know what degree of paralysis Gray suffered from his neck injury. How much could he move? Could he move enough to struggle after being leg-cuffed? Did he suffer some degree of injury being arrested, then further injury in the van before Allan was arrested? If the ride was smooth for Allan, Gray must have been able to move to some degree - otherwise Allan would not have heard four seconds of movement. Maybe Gray was injured being arrested, and his injury worsened along the way - either because he struggled, or because of a rough ride that ended when Allan was placed in the van with him. Or maybe Allan was wrong about the ride being smooth, or that he heard Gray struggling either more, or less, than four seconds worth. So of course, based on these facts, we can be reasonably sure that the Baltimore police deliberately murdered him because he was black. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/284 "2015-05-01T15:27:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I do not know how his spine got injured. If it was injured in a rough ride before Allan was put into the van, it apparently changed the instant they put another prisoner in. I don’t know why they would be rough with one prisoner but smooth with two. > > I also don’t know what degree of paralysis Gray suffered from his neck injury. How much could he move? Could he move enough to struggle after being leg-cuffed? Did he suffer some degree of injury being arrested, then further injury in the van before Allan was arrested? If the ride was smooth for Allan, Gray must have been able to move to some degree - otherwise Allan would not have heard four seconds of movement. > > Maybe Gray was injured being arrested, and his injury worsened along the way - either because he struggled, or because of a rough ride that ended when Allan was placed in the van with him. Or maybe Allan was wrong about the ride being smooth, or that he heard Gray struggling either more, or less, than four seconds worth. > > So of course, based on these facts, we can be reasonably sure that the Baltimore police deliberately murdered him because he was black. > > Regards, > Shodan Further investigation will tell use more, but at this point, the police look like they really screwed up. Why they mistreated him is not known, whether it was racial or not. But it’s pretty clear so far he was mistreated. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/285 "2015-05-01T15:32:44Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Except the people who cleaned up their Baltimore neighborhood were NOT the thugs who had looted, and burned the neighborhood. And you know this, how? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/286 "2015-05-01T15:47:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Except the people who cleaned up their Baltimore neighborhood were NOT the thugs who had looted, and burned the neighborhood. And these people are thugs too, right? > [@](#): > > Whether stimulated externally or ignited internally, ferment during the years from 1761 to 1766 changed the dynamics of social and political relations in the colonies and set in motion currents of reformist sentiment with the force of a mountain wind. Critical to this half decade was the colonial response to England’s Stamp Act, more the reaction of common colonists than that of their presumed leaders… > > …violence and threats of aggressive acts increased throughout the colonies as did organized groups of resistance. Throughout the colonies, members of the middle and upper classes of society formed the foundation for these groups of resistance and soon called themselves the Sons of Liberty. These colonial groups of resistance burned effigies of royal officials, forced Stamp Act collectors to resign and were able to get businessmen and judges to go about without using the proper stamps demanded by Parliament.[50] > > On August 26, MacIntosh led an attack on Hutchinson’s mansion. The mob evicted the family, destroyed the furniture, tore down the interior walls, emptied the wine cellar, scattered Hutchinson’s collection of Massachusetts historical papers, and pulled down the building’s cupola. > **[Stamp Act 1765](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_Act_1765)** > > The Stamp Act 1765, also known as the Duties in American Colonies Act 1765 (5 Geo. 3. c. 12), was an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain which imposed a direct tax on the British colonies in America and required that many printed materials in the colonies be produced on stamped paper from London which included an embossed revenue stamp. Printed materials included legal documents, magazines, playing cards, newspapers, and many other types of paper used throughout the colonies, and it had Th... ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/287 "2015-05-01T16:18:05Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > And these people are thugs too, right? > > [Stamp Act 1765 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_Act_1765) The same definition still applies. _thug noun › a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal: Some thugs smashed his windows._ ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/288 "2015-05-01T16:25:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And you know this, how? The volunteer cleanup crews appeared to be some of the same people who had been standing between the police lines and the thugs the day before. I suppose it possible that the same drunken assholes who had spent the night looting, and burning, had sobered up and came back a few hours later to clean up the streets, and repair the damaged buildings. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/289 "2015-05-01T17:14:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So of course, based on these facts, we can be reasonably sure that the Baltimore police deliberately murdered him because he was black. We can also be sure the cops have been forthright and cooperative throughout, in the interest of truth and transparency. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/290 "2015-05-01T17:18:13Z")
> [@bup](#): > > We can also be sure the cops have been forthright and cooperative throughout, in the interest of truth and transparency. And the burning, looting, and rioting is an expression of civic-mindedness. It’s good when the SDMB comes together like this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/291 "2015-05-01T17:43:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The same definition still applies. > > _thug > noun > › a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal: > Some thugs smashed his windows._ So, yes then? We can agree that a lot of the resistance to British rule carried out by American colonists was done so by thugs? So it would seem that the thugs in Baltimore are similar to the thugs in the Sons of Liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/292 "2015-05-01T17:59:07Z")
To be sure, those in America opposed to a foreign ruler engaged in plenty of thuggery (esp. criminal behavior) in advance of and during “civilized” revolution toward the loyalists and others representing the Crown. Even without an overriding conflict, humans will do what they believe they “have to” to survive and thrive. We aren’t terribly superior to the average virus (actually, virus is far better at evolution than humans). The same things that ended the British Empire and all the empires that ever were may take however many more decades to end the Empire that is the U.S. (the presence of ignorance and lack of self-awareness helps enormously). Human nature is what it is; the herd doesn’t often change trajectory until it’s in panic mode. If (pale) folks don’t want revolution, then it is ultimately in their own best interest to move way from a protocol of containment-and-(petty)-appeasement (and only when necessary) to the realization that change is inevitable. It’s simply math(s). Extermination protocol, as with those who occupied the lands before we arrived, is not feasible. But then common sense doesn’t really enter into the equation – nor right – so the primary trajectory will remain unchanged. Maybe extraterrestrials will invade, and it’ll be kumbaya until it isn’t. (Even if repelled, we’ll go back to business as usual.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/293 "2015-05-01T18:02:22Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So, yes then? We can agree that a lot of the resistance to British rule carried out by American colonists was done so by thugs? So it would seem that the thugs in Baltimore are similar to the thugs in the Sons of Liberty. So, yes then. A lot of the resistance to British rule was carried out by the Continental Army. There was also resistance by militias, saboteurs, and spys. I’m sure the British, German auxiliaries, and loyalists considered their opposition to be thugs, just as the patriots considered their opposition to be thugs. Assuming that the opposition committed acts of violence. Thugs are thugs. Our thugs were cheeky and fun. Their thugs were cruel and tragic. It seems that there is no racial overtone to the use of the word - thug. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/294 "2015-05-01T20:05:14Z")
> **[6 Baltimore Police Officers Charged in Freddie Gray Death (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html?_r=0)** > > Prosecutors in Baltimore described repeated mistreatment of a 25-year-old man whose death has set the city on edge. > [@](#): > > 6 Baltimore Police Officers Charged in Freddie Gray Death > > Baltimore’s chief prosecutor charged six police officers on Friday with crimes including murder and manslaughter in the arrest and fatal injury of Freddie Gray, a striking and surprisingly swift turn in a case that has drawn national attention to police conduct. > > The state’s attorney for Baltimore, Marilyn J. Mosby, filed the charges almost as soon as she received a medical examiner’s report that ruled Mr. Gray’s death a homicide, and a day after the police concluded their initial investigation and handed over their findings. Officials had cautioned that it could take considerable time for her office to complete its own investigation and decide whether to prosecute. > > Five of the six officers are in custody, Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said later. ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/295 "2015-05-02T12:13:26Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/us/freddie-gray-autopsy-report-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html?_r=0) Three of the 6 officers charged are black. This is not a racial issue, it is a police brutality issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/296 "2015-05-02T12:17:03Z")
> [@esmeralda2](#): > > Three of the 6 officers charged are black. This is not a racial issue, it is a police brutality issue. FWIW, the three arresting officers were white. The van driver and two other officers who checked on Gray but didn’t see anything wrong were black. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/297 "2015-05-02T13:52:30Z")
> [@esmeralda2](#): > > Three of the 6 officers charged are black. This is not a racial issue, it is a police brutality issue. The issue is that certain populations like poor urban blacks are seen as essentially fair game for being brutalized, the race of the cops is irrelevant. There have been many cases involving homeless people also brutalized > **[Father Calls Police Beating Death of His Son 'Hate Crime'](https://www.christianpost.com/news/father-wants-death-penalty-for-policeman-in-homeless-sons-fatal-beating-53506/)** > > The father of a homeless mentally disabled man, who was beaten during a confrontation with police and later died, wants the key officer among the six under investigation to receive the death penalty, Bad cops pick those they perceive as on the lower rungs of society to victimize. ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/298 "2015-05-02T16:16:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The issue is that certain populations like poor urban blacks are seen as essentially fair game for being brutalized, the race of the cops is irrelevant. > > There have been many cases involving homeless people also brutalized > > [Father Calls Police Beating Death of His Son 'Hate Crime' | U.S.](http://www.christianpost.com/news/father-wants-death-penalty-for-policeman-in-homeless-sons-fatal-beating-53506/) > > Bad cops pick those they perceive as on the lower rungs of society to victimize. I don’t agree; I don’t think the race of the cops is irrelevant. Not at all. This is a police brutality issue–not a racial issue. It may have to do with those who live in ghettos or are poor and vulnerable, but it cannot be a race issue when half of the cops involved are black. This is aboutu bad cops, not about race. ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/299 "2015-05-02T16:18:00Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The issue is that certain populations like poor urban blacks are seen as essentially fair game for being brutalized, the race of the cops is irrelevant. > > There have been many cases involving homeless people also brutalized > > [Father Calls Police Beating Death of His Son 'Hate Crime' | U.S.](http://www.christianpost.com/news/father-wants-death-penalty-for-policeman-in-homeless-sons-fatal-beating-53506/) > > Bad cops pick those they perceive as on the lower rungs of society to victimize. I don’t think the race of the cops is irrelevant. Not at all. This is a police brutality issue–not a racial issue. It may have to do with those who live in ghettos or are poor and vulnerable, but it cannot be a race issue when half of the cops involved are black. This is about bad cops, not about race. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677/300 "2015-05-02T18:11:30Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > So, yes then. > > A lot of the resistance to British rule was carried out by the Continental Army. There was also resistance by militias, saboteurs, and spys. I’m sure the British, German auxiliaries, and loyalists considered their opposition to be thugs, just as the patriots considered their opposition to be thugs. Assuming that the opposition committed acts of violence. > > Thugs are thugs. Our thugs were cheeky and fun. Their thugs were cruel and tragic. > > It seems that there is no racial overtone to the use of the word - thug. Careful with [that word](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=755965), Eugene. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-baltimore/718677.md?page=16)