# WTF? Big Bang and Evolution are TWO DIFFERENT THEORIES!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452 "2003-02-03T06:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/1 "2003-02-03T06:51:19Z")
Why, oh why, does the origin of the unviverse crop up in every singe evolution debate? they are two completely seperate theories from two completely different areas of science which have nothing in common with each other than the fact that they make fundamentalists uncomfortable. One is about big exploding chunks of fiery gas (think mexican food), the other is about small, non-exploding chunks of slimy slime (think student food). How in the world can they be construed as one theory? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/2 "2003-02-03T07:05:08Z")
Not to seem unsympathetic to your sense of annoyance, but is the above _apropos_ of anything in particular? ---
**Author:** ![Deathstatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Deathstatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deathstatic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/3 "2003-02-03T07:13:19Z")
I agree whole-heartedly. However, I was once Christian too and found it very uncomfortable to think of evolution as a possibility. At the time, for me, I also thought the theory of evolution was an attack on my religion and creator. So I understand why it is brought up… what? No creator? Nobody gives a shit about me!!! Who can I push my problems onto now? They just want you to fill in the blanks, just like I did. Blanks like when I found my parents putting presents under the Christmas Tree in the middle of the night, not Santa Claus… or when I found them hiding candy in the yard, not the Easter Bunny. You’re right though, I don’t believe I have ever had a discussion on evolution where the “big bang” didn’t also come into question. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/4 "2003-02-03T07:53:58Z")
Well, you have to remember that you are dealing with people who actually believe that there is a scientific basis to Creationism. In other words, their actual grasp of genuine science may have been compromised. However, _from their perspective_, they have a point. Their logic is one of origins and causes as found in the Metaphysics of Aristotle and, later, the Scholastics. Everything must have a cause or origin. They know, intuitively, that _evilution_ is wrong, so they look for its first event–and get back to abiogenesis (which, as everyone knows, Loius Pasteur “disproved” in the nineteenth century). And, while “we’re on the subject,” where did everything _else_ come from? If they can get an admission that God was the origin of the Whole Universe (and let’s not hear any nonsense about Stephen Hawking and his _singularities_), then they can posit that God probably made critters, and if you’ve conceded that God might have done that, what is to prevent God from having populated the world with species that happen to resemble each other? Their point is that, regardless what tedious _facts_ you may throw out regarding homology and fossil records and DNA and all the rest, your basic argument is flawed because you are missing the _Big Picture_, in which everything had to come from _somewhere_ and that source is God. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/5 "2003-02-03T07:58:30Z")
But, um…a tornado blowing through a junkyard can’t make a 747… No, uh…but then why are puppies so darn cute?.. Wait, er…they carbon dated a living tree at 10,000 years old… No, I’ve got it…Jesus said… No, that’s not it, um…Second Law of Thermodynamics… Aggh…uncaused cause?.. [head explodes] ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/6 "2003-02-03T16:02:44Z")
Look at it this way, probably 60% of the population doesn’t know what a cell _really_ is. They don’t understand how DNA works, hell they probably believe the crap most modern periodicals say about DNA. I"m still laughing about an article in Redbook we talked about in the oncogenetics class I took: It showed similar basepairs pairing up in ds DNA. 🙂 hehe T-T A-A g-g c-c ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/7 "2003-02-03T16:23:10Z")
Fundamentalists lump them together because in Fundamental ‘theory’ they are together - universal creation and life creation are a single unified event. If you look at it from their point of view, they do belong together, so it’s natural that the scientific explanations should be together. I don’t know if I’m just restating what **tomndeb** said…I think I at least added a tiny shred here. ---
**Author:** ![Slip\_Mahoney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Slip\_Mahoney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slip_Mahoney)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/8 "2003-02-03T16:43:24Z")
Actually the Big Bang _is_ an evolutionary theory. It explains how the universe evolves, not how it was created. Darwin’s theory also says nothing about the creation of life. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/9 "2003-02-03T16:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slip Mahoney \* > \*\*Actually the Big Bang _is_ an evolutionary theory. It explains how the universe evolves, not how it was created. > \*\* Hmmm…That’s interesting. I’d still say that the two are different, one being cosmological (Is that the right term) evolution and the other being biological evolution. One deals with life and the other does not. I was just thinking about this and one of the most often rebuttals that I’ve heard (over and over again) is the “it’s just a theory” sound bite. This annoys me because it’s followed up with “if they were so sure it would be a LAW”. Which isn’t true at all. My question is, their is an apparant interest in some science, _but why not the proper science?_ ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/10 "2003-02-03T17:02:34Z")
A peeve of mine is “do you really believe we evolved from monkeys?” No. We evolved from the same ancestor the monkey did. Even people who supposedly know that evolution is a fact have a problem with the preception that all of the apes sort of sprung out from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/11 "2003-02-03T18:30:12Z")
I’m a Christian and don’t consider it a violation of my faith to believe in either. God created the things that caused the Big Bang and/or the process of evolution. That’s what I think. I never understood how those theories conflicted with Christianity, other than the belief that the earth was created in 7 days and that was done about 10,000 years ago. Only a small minority of Christians believe that. I’ve never given it very much thought because I figure I’ll find out soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![ReuvenB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/12 "2003-02-03T19:10:15Z")
The reason i think they come up together is from the scientific standpoint, they are two different things, but from the creationist argument, to argue one you must argue both. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/13 "2003-02-03T19:33:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*A peeve of mine is “do you really believe we evolved from monkeys?” No. We evolved from the same ancestor the monkey did. \*\* Which was a monkey. Well, ape. If someone were to say to me, “Do you really believe we evolved from apes?” I’d say, “No, we _are_ apes.” > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Slip Mahoney_ > Actually the Big Bang is an evolutionary theory. It explains how the universe evolves, not how it was created. Semantically, yes. It is an evolutionary theory because it literally explains how the universe _evolved_. It still has nothing to do with Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Slip Mahoney_ > Darwin’s theory also says nothing about the creation of life. Got me. How about if I argue the broader point that the driving principle - survival of the fittest - could explain how a molecule that already tends to replicate itself, would make copies of itself, and the ones that did it better led to protolife, which led to life? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/14 "2003-02-03T19:49:08Z")
Actually (and this is one of my own pet peeves) _evolution_ is not technically the theory. Evolution is the observation explained by Darwin’s theory of _natural selection_. Even many of the most ardent proponents of creationism recognize that change can happen, and that is all evolution really is. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/15 "2003-02-03T19:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slip Mahoney \* > \*\*Actually the Big Bang _is_ an evolutionary theory. It explains how the universe evolves, not how it was created. > > Darwin’s theory also says nothing about the creation of life. \*\* Evolution implies a sort of forward progress of organisms to become more ‘fit’. The big bang theory is an attempt to explain how matter was first generated in our universe. Then using that theory we have physics that describe mechanisms which allow for creation of stars, planets and the formation of solar systems. Regardless, the universe as such does not evolve. It is not undergoing a chance in structure/form/fitness that gives it any advantage. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/16 "2003-02-03T19:59:15Z")
Ok, look INANIMATE OBJECTS CAN"T EVOLVE! There is no survival pressure on a freaking rock! The rock either exists or does not exist. It cannot pass on genetic material to it’s baby rocks so subsequent generations can benifit from any/all mutations that occured during the rock’s life. IF rocks suddenly start growing and reproducing offspring that are in turn able to reproduce THEN they can evolve all they damn well want! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/17 "2003-02-03T20:00:32Z")
I was watching the PBS series Evolution and a scientist refered to the big bang and its consequences as evolution. I was pretty put off by that. There’s no natural selection in astronomy. I agree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/18 "2003-02-03T20:03:27Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by bup \* > [@](#): > > \*Biggirl said this:\*A peeve of mine is “do you really believe we evolved from monkeys?” No. We evolved from the same ancestor the monkey did. > > \*\*Which was a monkey. Well, ape. > > If someone were to say to me, “Do you really believe we evolved from apes?” I’d say, “No, we _are_ apes.” > \*\* Whenever this is said to me (not often these days, because I refuse talk to my born-again family members about this subject) the people in question mean chimpanzees. I know and you know that chimpanzees aren’t even monkeys, but the all seem to think the evolutionist believe it went from gibbons, to gorillas, to chimpanzees to human. Or some equally silly line of ascent. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/19 "2003-02-03T20:26:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slip Mahoney \* > \*\*Actually the Big Bang _is_ an evolutionary theory. It explains how the universe evolves, not how it was created. > \*\* I share the OP’s exasperation. I also agree with Slip. I live in south Louisiana and most of acquaintances know that my graduage training was in Physical Anthropology (“AlasYorick” = skull; get it? :D). This is pretty much like painting a target on my forehead: “How can you believe that evolution crap?” Needless to say, I’ve had a lot of practice dealing with "creation science, "an oxymoron if there ever was one (and probably best dealt with in another thread?). “Evolution” is merely another word for change over time, whether it describes worlds, species, programming languages, whatever. However, the word has come to be associated specifically with the evolution of the human species. As an aside, I’ve found that the meaning of the word “theory” and the works of Darwin are probably the most misunderstood concepts around today. As someone raised as a fundamentalist Baptist, I can sympathize with Christians who can’t understand why anyone could buy the theory of human evolution; after all, all the Chick mags that I read did indeed say that evolution means your grandfather was literally a monkey. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452/20 "2003-02-03T22:30:08Z")
PoorYorick: Evolution doesn’t mean change over time. It’s a change over time in which there are increases complexity or fitness or further development. Wouldn’t the formation of stars/planets and the removal of matter via blackholes mean that the universe becoming LESS complex as a whole? Big Bang = highly complex vs slowly expanding/cooling universe? Arrg I don’t know, I never did pay too much attention in phsysics classes. I never really cared too much about the finer points of astrophsyics or quantum mechanics ☹ This is assuming that gasses have a higher complexity than solid state objects. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-big-bang-and-evolution-are-two-different-theories/152452.md?page=2)