# Wtf Cheney/lieberman!?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671 "2006-08-14T14:53:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/61 "2006-08-14T22:40:06Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yes, I hear tell that the vice president is just plain old rattlesnake _mean_! 😉 … So mean, he once killed a man just ‘fer snorin’ too loud. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/62 "2006-08-14T23:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > So, how is it going to happen even then? Which country is stupid enough to want to get in the middle of the mess we created. (Besides Iran, that is.) An Arab or Islamic force would be seen as supporting either the Sunni or Shia side. It’ll be the U.N., of course, which, in terms of graft, is only marginally better than handing over briefcases full of cash to Sunni warlords in an opium den. But yes, if we leave, Iraq will devolve into possibly the worst genocide since, oh, Cambodia (and I’m being conservative. I can well imagine more than 2,000,000 people dying.) The American people will neither hear nor care very much about it for years, having washed our hands of the whole thing. We will rationalize that we have nothing to do with it, since it’s just ancient rivalries playing themselves out. Only a few people will remember or care that we actually catalyzed the entire thing by putting a spear through the chest of the (admittedly unlamented) government and then pulled out, leaving the country without any visible means of support. This will put everything on a purely Darwinian basis. The most brutal, violent bastards in Iraq will eventually claw their way to the top of a sky-high heap of Iraqi corpses. They will more than likely be violently Islamist extremists (or a militarily aggressive junta,) and either option is bad for us. However, we will have paid for the whole damn thing (again,) because we will have been contributing money and troops to a blue-helmet operation which will be utterly insignificant and ineffective. We’ll eventually have to use our military again, of course, and crush the next government, at the behest of the U.N…with all the civilian deaths, body bags, and flag-covered coffins all over again. I hate that we’re stuck in Iraq, but stuck we are, and pulling out now will do nothing but guarantee that untold millions will die later, including even more Americans. > [@](#): > > The receiving support = terrorist piece is a bit problematical, and reminds me of those who said Saddam supported terrorism because he sent money to the widows of suicide bombers. I wonder why that’s problematical. If it has been firmly established that he did such a thing, then it’s absolutely unequivocal that he supported terrorism. > [@](#): > > Bull. People killed by insurgents are just as dead as those killed by terrorists. Issue of scale. We pull out, and I guarantee you that within a year, ten times the number of people that are now dead in the conflict will have died. I point you once again toward an informative historical precedent in the form of, oh hell, just about any totalitarian government that muscled their way to the top of the heap in the morality-and-consequence-free collapsed society. But let’s just go with Khmer Rouge for now (we, incidentally precipitated that particular genocide by doing almost the thing we’re doing now.) Cambodia lost their head of state in 1970. Then, we suspended aid to Cambodia in 1973, which helped Khmer Rouge enormously, then when we militarily pulled out of the region, it left a titanic vacuum which the Khmer were only too happy to fill to capacity with dead people. All the warnings are there. We not only have military groups and social sects, but we have the most dangerous of all there as well - the True Believers. And if they grab power in our absence, the deserts of Iraq might not be big enough to hold all the corpses, and Iraq will graduate from being a thorn in our sides to being an incredibly dangerous international presence with all the funding they need in the form of petroleum to do whatever they wish. Pulling out is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/63 "2006-08-14T23:09:07Z")
**Oy!** How about adding (e) It becomes clear that the forces of the legitimate government are either hopelessly infiltrated by insurgents and/or are acting as de facto militias, taking sides in the sectarian conflict, and out of control of the government. (Or in control of elected or appointed officials more interested in the sectarian conflict than unity.) This does not necessarily involve Iran. A lot of this seems to be happening, and it is not clear how it could be stopped, besides having US forces take command of Iraqi ones - and that is just a stopgap. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/64 "2006-08-14T23:18:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > **Oy!** > How about adding > (e) It becomes clear that the forces of the legitimate government are either hopelessly infiltrated by insurgents and/or are acting as de facto militias, taking sides in the sectarian conflict, and out of control of the government. (Or in control of elected or appointed officials more interested in the sectarian conflict than unity.) > > This does not necessarily involve Iran. A lot of this seems to be happening, and it is not clear how it could be stopped, besides having US forces take command of Iraqi ones - and that is just a stopgap. Sorry, I thought that was covered by d), and that I was just using Iran as an example. I guess I didn’t make myself clear enough. You’d think someone as long winded as me could at least manage to get my point across! ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/65 "2006-08-14T23:22:41Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yes, we created the problem. I know that. We broke it. We bought it. Actually, **we** didn’t create the problem. Those who supported the war in the first place did. Wasn’t your name on that list? The rest of us are of varying opinions regarding what to do to fix it, but we sure as hell didn’t break it. We tried our damnedest to stop the rest of you from doing it, in fact. If it makes you feel any better, **we** are paying for it with you. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/66 "2006-08-14T23:26:04Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Actually, **we** didn’t create the problem. Those who supported the war in the first place did. Wasn’t your name on that list? > > The rest of us are of varying opinions regarding what to do to fix it, but we sure as hell didn’t break it. We tried our damnedest to stop the rest of you from doing it, in fact. If it makes you feel any better, **we** are paying for it with you. But we as a nation _did_ create the problem. The fact that you and I voted against it doesn’t change that. We’re now talking about what we as a nation should do. As Democrats, we have the option of throwing up our hands and saying “It wasn’t _our_ idea! Fix it yourself.” Personally, I don’t consider that a moral option, as personally appealing as I find the idea. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/67 "2006-08-14T23:51:11Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > But we as a nation _did_ create the problem. The fact that you and I voted against it doesn’t change that. We’re now talking about what we as a nation should do. As Democrats, we have the option of throwing up our hands and saying “It wasn’t _our_ idea! Fix it yourself.” Personally, I don’t consider that a moral option, as personally appealing as I find the idea. I agree that **we** have to fix it, but no, I am not part of the problem. I fought harder against this war than I’ve fought anything in my life, and I’ve been a soldier before. I want the chickenhawks who were all gung-ho about this to never forget this, so that **we** can hopefully not repeat the mistake the next time we get a President with blood lust. Fifty years from now, if their grandkids are parroting some foolish president and chanting “Hell yeah, let’s kick some butt”, I want them to sit down and explain what happened the last time **we** thought that was a good idea. I want them to talk about our troops killing and raping innocent civilians, our government locking up people for years without evidence, our condoning of torture, the tens or hundreds of thousands who died, and what was actually gained by all of it. I fully support the right of a country to defend itself. That’s not what we did. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/68 "2006-08-15T00:20:30Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I agree that **we** have to fix it, but no, I am not part of the problem. I fought harder against this war than I’ve fought anything in my life, and I’ve been a soldier before. I want the chickenhawks who were all gung-ho about this to never forget this, so that **we** can hopefully not repeat the mistake the next time we get a President with blood lust. Fifty years from now, if their grandkids are parroting some foolish president and chanting “Hell yeah, let’s kick some butt”, I want them to sit down and explain what happened the last time **we** thought that was a good idea. I want them to talk about our troops killing and raping innocent civilians, our government locking up people for years without evidence, our condoning of torture, the tens or hundreds of thousands who died, and what was actually gained by all of it. > > I fully support the right of a country to defend itself. That’s not what we did. I agree with this post 100%, except that, to my shame, I did not take serious action to prevent this war beyond opposing it personally and to anyone with whom I spoke. I donated heavily (for me, we’re not talking multi-thousands here) to prevent W’s re-election in 2004 (I was in better financial shape then than in 2000), but of course by then it was far too late. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/69 "2006-08-15T00:33:41Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > Cheney: “The al Queda types are betting on the proposition that ultimately they can break the will of the American people in terms of our ability to stay in the fight and complete the task. And when they see the Democratic Party reject one of its own, a man they selected to be their vice presidential nominee just a few short years ago, it would seem to say a lot about the state the party is in today.” > > Lieberman: “If we just pick up like Ned Lamont wants us to do, get out by a date certain, it will be taken as a tremendous victory by the same people who wanted to blow up these planes in this plot hatched in England. It will strengthen them, and they will strike again.” I strongly agree with both these statements. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/70 "2006-08-15T00:45:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I strongly agree with both these statements. :rolleyes: Since terrorists were planning to do it regardless of the election outcome, what Chenney/Lieberman are actually saying is **nothing**. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/71 "2006-08-15T00:56:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Since terrorists were planning to do it regardless of the election outcome, what Chenney/Lieberman are actually saying is **nothing**. Planning to do what? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/72 "2006-08-15T01:02:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Since terrorists were planning to do it regardless of the election outcome, what Chenney/Lieberman are actually saying is **nothing**. Good point. I really hate this argument, and the rhetorical traps that the bad guys are successfully setting in it. Cheney and Lieberman can be as right as they want about the wisdom of telegraphing the United States’ intentions to all and sundry. It doesn’t change the fact that it was a horrendous blunder to put us into this situation. It doesn’t change the fact that the people responsible for putting us into the situation must be removed from positions of power as soon as possible, and replaced with people who will bear the terrible task of cleaning up the mess. I really don’t expect that a Senator Lamont will be successful in leading Congress to a position that insists on a public withdraw-by date, but I do hope that his electon will be a step on the path to atonement. That is what my nation owes to the world, as obnoxious a truth as that is. A crucial step in that atonement is going to have to be an admission that what the USA did, under the leadership of GWB and whoever is pulling his strings, was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/73 "2006-08-15T01:08:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Good point. I really hate this argument, and the rhetorical traps that the bad guys are successfully setting in it. Cheney and Lieberman can be as right as they want about the wisdom of telegraphing the United States’ intentions to all and sundry. It doesn’t change the fact that it was a horrendous blunder to put us into this situation. > > It doesn’t change the fact that the people responsible for putting us into the situation must be removed from positions of power as soon as possible, and replaced with people who will bear the terrible task of cleaning up the mess. > > I really don’t expect that a Senator Lamont will be successful in leading Congress to a position that insists on a public withdraw-by date, but I do hope that his electon will be a step on the path to atonement. That is what my nation owes to the world, as obnoxious a truth as that is. A crucial step in that atonement is going to have to be an admission that what the USA did, under the leadership of GWB and whoever is pulling his strings, was wrong. Amen! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/74 "2006-08-15T01:09:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It doesn’t change the fact that it was a horrendous blunder to put us into this situation. That’s not a fact. It’s an opinion. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t change the fact that the people responsible for putting us into the situation must be removed from positions of power as soon as possible, and replaced with people who will bear the terrible task of cleaning up the mess. Not a fact, either. > [@](#): > > I really don’t expect that a Senator Lamont will be successful in leading Congress to a position that insists on a public withdraw-by date, but I do hope that his electon will be a step on the path to atonement. That is what my nation owes to the world, as obnoxious a truth as that is. Not a truth, but an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/75 "2006-08-15T01:14:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s not a fact. It’s an opinion. > > Not a fact, either. > > Not a truth, but an opinion. And yours too, but based on nothing; and on the fact that you really can not read, a plot **is** a plan. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/76 "2006-08-15T01:16:48Z")
Having stabbed Iraq in in the gut, Cheney proposes we keep twisting the knife indefinitely. As occupiers, it is beyond our power to ‘fix’ Iraq. We are too polarizing an influence. All our continued presence can do now is get more people killed, breed more terrorists, and destabilize the entire middle east. Perhaps that destabilization is what Cheney and his comrades seek. Wouldn’t it be _lovely_ to finally find an excuse to bulldoze the whole area and rebuild it to resemble northern Indiana, but with oil? How much would that cost in blood and treasure? Too much. It’s better that we pull out now, and avoid the whole sordid fantasy. Sure, bin Laden might crow a little. So what? We could use the resources we rescue from the quagmire to kick his sorry ass through the gates of hell, and the people of Iraq could, for better or worse, find their **own** way into the future. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/77 "2006-08-15T01:27:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And yours too, but based on nothing; and on the fact that you really can not read, a plot **is** a plan. Overclocked your grammar chip, dintja? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/78 "2006-08-15T01:38:03Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Having stabbed Iraq in in the gut, Cheney proposes we keep twisting the knife indefinitely. > As occupiers, it is beyond our power to ‘fix’ Iraq. We are too polarizing an influence. All our continued presence can do now is get more people killed, breed more terrorists, and destabilize the entire middle east. Perhaps that destabilization is what Cheney and his comrades seek. Wouldn’t it be _lovely_ to finally find an excuse to bulldoze the whole area and rebuild it to resemble northern Indiana, but with oil? > How much would that cost in blood and treasure? > Too much. It’s better that we pull out now, and avoid the whole sordid fantasy. > Sure, bin Laden might crow a little. So what? We could use the resources we rescue from the quagmire to kick his sorry ass through the gates of hell, and the people of Iraq could, for better or worse, find their **own** way into the future. Sorry, **Squink** , but I don’t agree. Are Iraqis annoyed at having us there? Yes. No question about it. But the fact is, we are fulfilling a function, and a necessary one at that, at least if there is any hope whatsoever that Iraq can avoid a civil war that will kill enough citizens to make what we _and_ Hussein did to them look like a mild spanking. By all means, go with Voyager’s idea. Let the Iraqis citizens decide if they want us around or not. The fact is, no one on this message board is there on the ground as an Iraqi citizen, and our speculations are based on best guesses, and those guesses are WAGs at best. But tell me this; do you truly believe that our military presence in Iraq is \*not \* preventing a full-blown, no-holds-barred civil war in which incredibly large numbers of civilians would be killed? Or is it that you believe that that war is utterly inevitable, so it might as well be now as later, in which case I will ask you, do you truly believe that the elected government of Iraq, however slowly they are moving at this point (and it is an utter beginning for them, so I don’t think it’s surprising, given the factionalization and general conditions they have to overcome, that they are moving slowly) will never reach a point of being able to control their own internal strife? I mean, I agree that the US presence is probably provoking a small portion of the current violence. There are some people who are so seriously pissed off at the US for the invasion that the presence of the troops alone is sufficient to push them into it. But I think most of the violence is either out-and-out crime (non-politically motivated, simply taking advantage of the chaos), a serious current attempt to seize power, or above all, an attempt to make things bad enough that we will recall our troops, as a prerequisite for an attempt to seize power. If I am correct, our troops leaving will not improve the situation for the Iraqis; it will make it worse. I listed my “conditions” for leaving Iraq about 16 or so posts back. Do you disagree with those conditions, or do you feel one of them has been met? Please, don’t get mad at me! I think we’re both on the same side here and have been from the start. I’m just trying to understand your position better. I hope that you will accept that I am also trying to get you to understand mine. It’s ok if we disagree. I’d just like to understand at which point it is that our opinions diverge, as obviously they do. Are we interpreting the current situation differently, or is it that our priorities differ, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/79 "2006-08-15T01:44:38Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Having stabbed Iraq in in the gut, Cheney proposes we keep twisting the knife indefinitely. Bullshit. After evisceration we proceed to fillet, batter and deep fry Iraq in it’s own oil until it’s a golden brown and then serve it with freedom fries and tartar sauce. You make it sound like it’s purposeless, but leave it to a liberal not to recognize a fish fry. > [@](#): > > As occupiers, it is beyond our power to ‘fix’ Iraq. We’re not occupiers. > [@](#): > > We are too polarizing an influence. All our continued presence can do now is get more people killed, breed more terrorists, and destabilize the entire middle east. Perhaps that destabilization is what Cheney and his comrades seek. His comrades the… illuminati? The Legion of Doom? > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t it be _lovely_ to finally find an excuse to bulldoze the whole area and rebuild it to resemble northern Indiana, but with oil? I think they’re looking for more a Texas kind of feel. Put those swarthy a-rabs in sombreros and you won’t even need to squint. Indiana? Have you been to Indiana? How you gonna make Iraq look like Indiana? You liberals have no practicality or vision. Texas. When we bulldoze the middle east we’ll make into another Texas. > [@](#): > > How much would that cost in blood and treasure? Three Swabbies, A Bosun’s mate, a peck of pickled peppers, and a couple of those plastic shark heads on a stick. The kind where you squeeze the handle and the mouth opens and closes. > [@](#): > > Too much. But if we act now we win free windchimes. > [@](#): > > It’s better that we pull out now, That’s what she said. > [@](#): > > the people of Iraq could, for better or worse, find their **own** way into the future. We need to be there so we can smile as we screw them over, so they’ll know we were planning it that way and it wasn’t just an accident. You guys take yourselves really seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671/80 "2006-08-15T01:45:09Z")
Sorry, make that some 28 posts back for my conditions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-cheney-lieberman/368671.md?page=5)