# WTF is the stupid outrage over "Oriental" about? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163 "2014-10-22T17:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/1 "2014-10-22T17:47:52Z")
> [@Why do music chords sound "good"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-music-chords-sound-good/702016/16): > > To preempt further comment on this, it should be noted that the term “oriental” to refer to people from East Asia is considered **by some** to be derogatory, at least **in the US**. (“Oriental” as an adjective to refer to things, such as an oriental rug, is OK.) If you wish to discuss this term and whether or not it should be considered derogatory, please start another thread in GD or IMHO. [emphasis added by septimus] May I start a thread in BBQ Pit instead? First, Wikipedia offers an even weaker claim than Colibri: > [@](#): > > Because of historical discrimination against Chinese and Japanese, **in some parts** of the United States, **some people** consider the term derogatory. [emphasis added by septimus] Dictionaries are divided, but some allow the word: [[QUOTE=dictionary.reference.com/browse/oriental](http://QUOTE=dictionary.reference.com/browse/oriental)] 1. (usually initial capital letter) a native or inhabitant of the Orient. [/QUOTE] I don’t always intend to give offense, and will try to avoid the word “oriental”, at least with **some people** in **some parts** of the Internet, but please don’t take offense if I forget. I spent **six decades** not knowing the word was offensive and old habits die hard. (Parenthetical questions: If “discrimination against Chinese and Japanese” is the reason that some people in some parts of the U.S. consider “oriental” offensive, do they also consider “Chinese” and “Japanese” offensive? What’s the correlation with considering “niggardly” offensive? And if I were to use … gasp … a dictionary to guess what “native American” means I might decide that I am one, but I’m afraid any alternative term to denote aboriginal Americans would be considered **by some** to be offensive.) This all seems silly to me. I knew a white guy whose mother was American and father from North Africa, but people were horrified when he called himself “African-American.” Conversely, that term is sometimes used for Negroes (can we even use that term?) who have never been to America! :smack: I’ve used the term inadvertantly and been reprimanded. > [@Is what Westerners call "logic/logical" a matter of cultural perspective?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-what-westerners-call-logic-logical-a-matter-of-cultural-perspective/699970/24): > > “Orientals”? Seriously? Well, not really “reprimanded.” This post by Mr. Bright seems less reproachful than cryptic (though stupid might be the description I’d choose). I asked him what he meant: > [@Is what Westerners call "logic/logical" a matter of cultural perspective?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-what-westerners-call-logic-logical-a-matter-of-cultural-perspective/699970/27): > > I don’t really understand why it’s offensive either … In 99% of your posts, Mr. Bright, I find myself thinking "Why does he call himself “Not all that Bright? He seems very intelligent to me.” But then I see the above. If you don’t even know why the term is offensive, Brightboi, just shut the fuck up! And recently we see > [@Why do music chords sound "good"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-music-chords-sound-good/702016/14): > > WTF is “an oriental”? I doubt you’re so fucking stupid as to not know what the term means. If your intended meaning is “Please avoid this term which some people consider offensive” why not say that? Or did you and Mr. Brightboi go to the same seminar about Feigned Horror and Recreational Outrage at Silly Political-correctisms? > [@Why do music chords sound "good"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-music-chords-sound-good/702016/25): > > I apologise. I had no idea about this and it has no negative connotations that I am aware of on this side of the Atlantic. I am sure that most readers will realise that I was referring to people from the Far East, mainly China and Japan, where much of their music sounds discordant to us Westerners. Finally a voice of sanity! Thank you, **bob++**. Welcome to post-rational America, Bob. White cops murder blacks in cold blood and many people applaud, but refer to orientals as “orientals” and you’ll be banished. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/2 "2014-10-22T17:56:49Z")
Reminder: [Friday](http://www.aomday.org/) is Acupuncture and [del]Oriental[/del] Asian Medicine Day, if that sort of thing bangs your qi gong. > [@septimus](#): > > Welcome to post-rational America, Bob. White cops murder blacks in cold blood and many people applaud, but refer to orientals as “orientals” and you’ll be banished. :smack: Yes, there is no justice in Amerika. :dubious::smack: ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/3 "2014-10-22T18:00:17Z")
The same reason that some people consider Jap, Chinaman, or chink to be offensive: these words were used in a derogatory manner for a period of time towards a group and now it conjures up connections with those times and mores. The real question is, why would you want to defend your use of that word if other people feel, legitimately, that its offensive? How much does it harm you to just call someone what they want to be called? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/4 "2014-10-22T18:03:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The real question is, why would you want to defend your use of that word if other people feel, legitimately, that its offensive? How much does it harm you to just call someone what they want to be called? So you can’t even fucking read English? _I said_ I _don’t_ want to give offense and _use the term inadvertantly_. But since you’re so holier-than-me, give me a cite for Chinese or Japanese taking offense at the term “oriental.” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/5 "2014-10-22T18:04:09Z")
Dude, oriental is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please. In all seriousness, I thought it was more of an antiquated term used by baby boomers and not so much offensive. Like referring to the negros or Mussulmen. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/6 "2014-10-22T18:08:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So you can’t even fucking read English? _I said_ I _don’t_ want to give offense and _use the term inadvertantly_. > > But since you’re so holier-than-me, give me a cite for Chinese or Japanese taking offense at the term “oriental.” To be honest, I didn’t spend a lot of time reading what you wrote since this is the Pit and I don’t feel I need to be as thorough, so I read your thread title, skimmed your post, and assumed you are one of those people who want to say Oriental and hate all things politically correct. Assume my response is towards that person. If you’re not that person, ignore it By the way, I’m not apologizing because I think many times, it is useful to save time and make such assumptions. Given your thread title and parts of the post I actually read, I believe it was a very reasonable assumption to make, not at all presumptive, and I feel no regret at having done it and will continue to skim through such topics in the future. That said, if I was wrong, and given your reaction it seems like I was, I will just retract what I said since you are not the target of my ire. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with how I decided to respond to your post, I make this post by way of explanation, not excuse or as a request for forgiveness The end. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/7 "2014-10-22T18:11:13Z")
Things are oriental. People are Asian. At least that’s what I was taught, speaking as one of those people. But frankly, I don’t really give a shit. Of course, at least through grade 5 my brother and I represented a full 40% of all the Asian people at our elementary school, including faculty, and during that time, I was sure we were white. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/8 "2014-10-22T18:20:53Z")
Lots of Asian people don’t find the term offensive, but some do. If you are in the SF Bay Area and use the term, you will likely be treated the same as if you used the term “colored” or “negro”. You did want a cite, here’s from [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient): > [@](#): > > Some in the Americas and Europe consider “Oriental” an antiquated, pejorative, and disparaging term. John Kuo Wei Tchen, director of the Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute at New York University, said the basic critique of the term developed in the 1970s. Tchen has said: “With the anti-war movement in the '60s and early '70s, many Asian Americans identified the term ‘Oriental’ with a Western process of racializing Asians as forever opposite ‘others’.”[7] In a press release related to legislation aimed at removing the term “oriental” from official documents of the State of New York, Governor David Paterson said: “The word ‘oriental’ does not describe ethnic origin, background or even race; in fact, it has deep and demeaning historical roots”.[8] From the[Oxford Dictionary](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/oriental): > [@](#): > > The term Oriental, denoting a person from East Asia, is regarded as offensive by many Asians, especially Asian Americans. It has many associations with European imperialism in Asia. Therefore, it has an out-of-date feel and tends to be associated with a rather offensive stereotype of the people and their customs as inscrutable and exotic. Asian and more specific terms such as East Asian, Chinese, and Japanese are preferred. See also Asian (usage). Call people what they want to be called. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/9 "2014-10-22T18:24:07Z")
For the record, “oriental” is considered a Euro-centric word, that is, it describes something respecting it’s relationship to the once-dominant European cultures (i.e. you get there by heading east from Europe). Well, you don’t get to East Asia (which is a correct geographic description) by heading east from most places any more. And harking back to a time when everything was Euro-centric, when Europe did its best to impose its culture and values on the rest of the world because they were “better” and “more civilized”, might be considered condescending or belittling, even by people who are not directly referenced by the term. That said, you shouldn’t be jumped on for using the word if you didn’t understand this background. It is very rude to point out and ridicule other people’s mistakes; at most the distinction should be pointed out gently and in an “Oh, by the way” sort of tone. On preview, I see that **Bone** has beat me to it, but I will let my remarks stand nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/10 "2014-10-22T18:24:09Z")
Well, can we all at least agree that “Chinaman” is out of the question? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/11 "2014-10-22T18:28:19Z")
I still don’t know what ["Oriental Flavor"Maruchan Ramen](http://www.amazon.com/Maruchan-Ramen-Oriental-3-Ounce-Packages/dp/B003OB6CGI) are supposed to be. Shrimp I get. Chicken I get. Oriental…wtf? It’s still tasty. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/12 "2014-10-22T18:30:01Z")
I thought musselmen were the guys who worked on the Chesapeake Bay . . . [sub]I loved me some Bertha’s Mussels back in the day\*\* I’m still trying to not use _oriental_ to refer to people, but it’s tough. My Taiwanese roommate never corrected me back in the day (1980-81). He even used the term to refer to himself and others from that region. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/13 "2014-10-22T18:32:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I still don’t know what ["Oriental Flavor"Maruchan Ramen](http://www.amazon.com/Maruchan-Ramen-Oriental-3-Ounce-Packages/dp/B003OB6CGI) are supposed to be. Shrimp I get. Chicken I get. Oriental…wtf? It’s still tasty. Dog. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/14 "2014-10-22T18:38:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > If you don’t even know why the term is offensive, Brightboi, just shut the fuck up! If I may paraphrase: **RNATB** : I don’t really understand why it’s offensive, but I get that it is. **septimus** : You’re stupid. …dafuq? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/15 "2014-10-22T18:46:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Assume my response is towards that person. If you’re not that person, ignore it And similarly assume my rudish response was against the poster you might have been, not the one you are. 😃 I think my irritation was as much against the cryptic, sanctimonious and oh-so-very-very-precious comments like > [@](#): > > “Orientals”? Seriously? > … > WTF is “an oriental”? rather than against the politically-correctism itself. Which segues into: > [@andros](#): > > If I may paraphrase: > > **RNATB** : I don’t really understand why it’s offensive, but I get that it is. > > **septimus** : You’re stupid. > > …dafuq? I can’t be arsed to google “dafuq” but whatever it means, I’m rubber and you’re glue. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/16 "2014-10-22T18:51:50Z")
I think the San Francisco Bay Area reference is on point. I grew up in the Bay Area in the 1970’s, and I knew in elementary school that oriental was an inappropriate racial slur. We were also taught a lot about the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII, as well as about Japanese culture in general (or at least we wrote haiku and made carp kites for children’s day). It was only as an adult that I learned that oriental was not considered a slur by all English speakers. Conversely, I’ve only recently been training myself not to use “spaz” which has no context of bigotry for me, but is considered to be a serious slur in the UK. “dafuq” is an alternate way of saying WTF. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/17 "2014-10-22T19:05:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > To be honest, I didn’t spend a lot of time reading what you wrote since this is the Pit and I don’t feel I need to be as thorough, so I read your thread title, skimmed your post, and assumed you are one of those people who want to say Oriental and hate all things politically correct. Assume my response is towards that person. If you’re not that person, ignore it > > By the way, I’m not apologizing because I think many times, it is useful to save time and make such assumptions. Given your thread title and parts of the post I actually read, I believe it was a very reasonable assumption to make, not at all presumptive, and I feel no regret at having done it and will continue to skim through such topics in the future. That said, if I was wrong, and given your reaction it seems like I was, I will just retract what I said since you are not the target of my ire. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with how I decided to respond to your post, I make this post by way of explanation, not excuse or as a request for forgiveness > > The end. Your willful ignorance here is so obnoxious, lazy, arrogant, and stupid that it almost deserves its own Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/18 "2014-10-22T19:07:43Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I think the San Francisco Bay Area reference is on point. I grew up in the Bay Area in the 1970’s, and I knew in elementary school that oriental was an inappropriate racial slur. We were also taught a lot about the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII, as well as about Japanese culture in general (or at least we wrote haiku and made carp kites for children’s day). It was only as an adult that I learned that oriental was not considered a slur by all English speakers. L.A. isn’t that different from San Francisco in that respect. It’s not an outright slur. It’s more like using “colored” instead of “black” or “African-American”. But using it would definitely cause odd looks around here. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/19 "2014-10-22T19:12:41Z")
Didn’t read the rest of this thread but wanted to say that I was raised (38yr old American Male) that Oriental referred to “objects from east Asia” like carpets and food. Asian referred to the people. Now I’ll go back and see if others were told the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/20 "2014-10-22T19:14:17Z")
Also, **septimus**? I like you, I enjoy your posts. But when someone tells you that something you said was offensive, the right response is not a drunken rant about how was I supposed to know, I didn’t mean anything, what is the world coming to. The right response is, “Oh, sorry–thanks for the heads-up!” And if you’re really curious about why folks find it offensive, a good way to find out is a polite question. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=2)